Danielle McTaggart is Larkk

ep41 – Danielle McTaggart is Larkk

Glen Erickson (00:00)

I’m afraid of my browser history coming to slash my throat. That’s a lyric, right? This is something one good friend might joke to another. The kind of friend who finds your self-deprecating humor hilarious. It’s not the kind of vulnerability easily stuffed into a song. Too easily misinterpreted, maybe. But it lands. When someone cool says something hinting at being uncool, it maybe makes them even more cool.

I remember in my mid-20s, I was talking to a large group of people, people younger than me, big stage, big stakes at that stage of life, and decided to open with the story of my grade seven walkathon, 10 kilometers into a large loop through the country outside of small town Saskatchewan, where my body betrayed me after only the fourth kilometer and fully pooped my pants. I really thought it would land better than it did.

Vulnerability can be a superpower. The secret sauce of confident, bulletproof personalities is to lean into what you aren’t, be as human as possible maybe, so it can’t hold you back.

like in these lyrics. I’m afraid you might get bored of me. I’m afraid of bad sex for seven years. When life goes by every single day and I can’t keep up. The way an artist can inspire and influence us often begins with vulnerability. It draws you in, it disarms you, identifies with your struggles and helps you to be resilient in the face of difficulty.

Like these lyrics, we came too far to be looking back. Take me back to why we started in the first place. When you can’t go around, you must go down. These are the lyrics of Danielle McTaggart. Danielle is an artist best known for her role as vocalist, instrumentalist and songwriter in the Canadian indie alt rock band she shares with her husband, Dear Rouge. Dear Rouge is a JUNO award winning band from Vancouver, BC.

top 10 hits on the Canadian alt rock charts, including three number ones.

Somehow the glossy, repetitive, overly digestible formula of radio success wasn’t paying attention to the desperately vulnerable, grittin’ grime of finding hope from despair found in black to gold. And this story keeps playing out, song after song, in the Dear Rouge catalog, and then into Daniella’s solo work with Larkk. That’s Larkk with Two K’s, a stripped down, lush, and orchestral take on raw, poetic storytelling.

I didn’t ask Danielle about her browser history, by the way, but I’m pretty sure it would just make her even more endearing. My name is Glen Erickson. This is Almost Famous Enough. Thanks for spending your time with us. This is Danielle McTaggart.

Glen Erickson (03:18)

But thank you, Danielle, for joining me today. It’s really nice to meet you. Danielle McTaggart, obviously most well-known, one half.

Danielle McTaggart (03:22)

You too!

Glen Erickson (03:27)

of Dear Rouge, the singer songwriter, but now a new project, Larkk with 2Ks as well. So you have an expanding horizon going on, which is something I really wanted to be able to talk about with you. And a lot of what I talk about in the podcast is just the entire picture of a career of career music and

Danielle McTaggart (03:29)

Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Glen Erickson (03:54)

quote unquote, chasing the dream and the different ⁓ ways that that happens and appears for everybody. And I find most interesting the unique transitions, the unique choices, the in-betweens and all those kinds of things. So I think ⁓ what you’ve been pursuing is of real interest. But before I get to all of that, ⁓ I want to go all the way back because what started it for

Danielle McTaggart (04:00)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Glen Erickson (04:22)

for you in your career, the real kickoff I think was, you know, forming Deer Rouge in your career with Drew ⁓ and then winning the Peak Performance Project and kind of getting that big bundle of money and really setting you up. the reason I have to start there is the weird tie in is I was actually there the night you guys won at…

Danielle McTaggart (04:48)

Cool.

Glen Erickson (04:50)

was it? It wasn’t Vogue. What theater was that, do you remember? The Commodore, that’s right. Yeah. So I ⁓ was the chair of Alberta Music’s music association ⁓ at the time. And we had been studying the peak performance for a couple of years just to develop our own development program. And then Pattison wanted a new station in Calgary to follow

Danielle McTaggart (04:52)

the Commodore. Yeah, the Commodore, yeah.

Cool.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Glen Erickson (05:16)

the format of the peak and they had come to us to partner in the same way that Bob Deeth and Music BC had partnered to create that project. And so we took a little trip ⁓ down to the finale to meet all the brass and all the people on the board and talk about how to get that started and got invited to the final show. ⁓ I remember probably four very distinct things. It was a bit of a blur.

⁓ one of them was, ⁓ I met a guy named Mike Adele. You know, Mike, had him on the podcast. Yeah. So we became friends through that. realized we had a whole bunch of mutual friends. I remember that the VIP area I was, ⁓ invited to was full of like the guys in suits from radio. And I have to be a little bit careful because the irony is now my full-time job is with Paterson, media.

Danielle McTaggart (05:49)

Yeah, I know them.

Cool.

Mmm.

Glen Erickson (06:10)

So I should be a little careful, but I really didn’t love the fact that the guys in suits didn’t seem to really care that much about the music. I think they had people from sales and all, you know what mean? The people that aren’t so passionate about music or whatever. But, and then I remember Jordan Claussen and I remember your guys’ performance, 100%. So that was real fun. That’s kind of where things started for you, like really started.

Danielle McTaggart (06:18)

⁓ yeah.

Yep, yep.

that’s cool, nice.

Glen Erickson (06:37)

But I’d love to just sort of get a little background conversation first. I know you sometimes have to do this all over the place for people and keep telling the backstory over and over and over again. But I hope that you’ll ⁓ appease me a little bit. So you started in Red Deer, which everybody loves to talk about the fun play on words in the band name that you had made. ⁓ But I’m actually more entertained by the fact that one of your first names was Gaetz Avenue.

Danielle McTaggart (07:04)

that’s like way, way back. ⁓ Yeah, so I guess my influences in the music world are very small. There was no even real venue in Red Deer, Alberta at the time, like when I was growing up, there was this venue called the VAT. ⁓ And that was it. And they had like Sunday night, open mic nights. And sometimes I would do that. But like,

Glen Erickson (07:06)

way back.

Yep, that was it.

Danielle McTaggart (07:30)

I was just kind of like embedded into like a church culture type scenario there and finding my own way to music. always loved music and I always knew I wanted to do it. There’s just like nothing there to influence my, you know, my life. I just kind of had like very small. I’ve actually had to like grieve that in a way because it didn’t really have any moments. Like I was by Calgary and Edmonton, but it was always just like pop.

Glen Erickson (07:48)

Yeah.

Danielle McTaggart (07:57)

I saw Justin Timberlake one time and I saw like, I did get to see Oasis ⁓ and ⁓ Ryan Adams. That was pretty cool. ⁓ But no, I, yeah, so I guess that’s the reason why I’m bringing that up is because I didn’t really have ⁓ cool ideas at the time. I just didn’t really have any.

Glen Erickson (08:07)

Yeah.

Danielle McTaggart (08:20)

good influences to guide me or like to teach me. And so I just kind of was like, well, Red Deer is my hometown. I guess it’s like what I have to be inspired by. And my best friend and I, like he played piano. I sang, we did church stuff together. So we were just like, let’s start a band. And then like really weirdly, like Red Deer just, you you just start using what’s around you to be inspired by, I guess. I’ve never really thought about it like that, but I think that’s why I just feel like Red Deer kind of like became like our inspiration and.

It’s like actually quite a beautiful city. ⁓ I’m saying that like I’m surprised by it, but it’s really amazing. Like it’s a really good city to grow up in. And so yeah, but that’s like way back.

Glen Erickson (08:52)

Yeah.

Well, I find it interesting.

I mean, that’s, I just thought it was interesting because that’s like two sort of, yeah, a little play on words again, but was specific. But most people don’t name, like there’s bands that have used like the name of a street as their band name or things like that in the past. it’s like.

Danielle McTaggart (09:03)

Yeah, it’s another like play on words or not play on words, but it’s just straight up. Yeah.

Yeah, well, I live in Chilliwack now

and there’s literally a band called Chilliwack. it’s like there’s, you know, people. guess, you know, that is that is being a human being, though. You’re drawing from your your experiences. And yeah, I grew up there. So there you.

Glen Erickson (09:21)

Yeah, 100%.

Yeah,

yeah. Okay, I never, okay, segue a little bit. So I grew up in church culture too, and I found that moment, that gap of wanting to like branch out. ⁓ I mean, the limitation of influences as you were calling it, or ideas or inspirations, I wonder.

I guess maybe I thought I felt that too because I was in a, well, for the first half of my life, pretty conservatively restrictive. It was like I had to like, could only own Christian rock music. even some of that was even questionable to my dad. So. ⁓

Danielle McTaggart (10:09)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, that was.

wow, wow. That’s really, that’s really conservative,

yeah.

Glen Erickson (10:21)

Well, you know that because I was like, I was a late 80s kid. So it was like metal. It was striper and all that shit. So, ⁓ so the, know, he didn’t know what to make of guys wearing like tights and all that stuff. But, ⁓ I get, I get it. But, ⁓ but I found when I was wanting to break out, ⁓

Danielle McTaggart (10:25)

Yeah, yeah.

Glen Erickson (10:43)

Again, where do you go play? Because there was such a divide, right? This massive divide. don’t think non-church people would understand how big that gap felt between like church and secular, right? Air quotes secular. Did that feel like a big gap for you or did you have a family that didn’t treat that like such a big gap?

Danielle McTaggart (10:58)

Yeah, I guess that’s true. Yeah.

⁓

I guess so. think I just was like, this is a place that I don’t know I can be. How do you say like I would think about it like I’m shining my little light you know that’s how I saw it in those like places that I wasn’t used to but it did take a bit to I guess that’s a good question. I think that I guess that I just kind of like started to realize that like

Glen Erickson (11:21)

Yeah.

Danielle McTaggart (11:33)

God was everywhere, in everything, doing rad things everywhere. Like it didn’t matter. And I think my conservative upbringing too was like, you know, he’s in these specific places, doing specific things. I mean, it’s obvious and I just don’t think that’s true. And I think music in every sense has like a strain of God in it. And those venues and those places are building community. Some of it’s not positive, honestly. Some of it’s like,

ruining people’s lives and like in terms of like their, you know, their own choices, like whatever they’re doing with their, ⁓ what’s the word I’m looking for? Vices. ⁓ But I think those places can be so beautiful and rich in like family and heritage and like the VAT, like I know I tried to shut down a couple times and people were like, no, like they fought for it.

Glen Erickson (12:03)

Mm-hmm.

Danielle McTaggart (12:24)

because it gave them a sense of community and I think community is just everywhere and the music community is everywhere. So I think I just, it took me a long time to learn that, that like just because it’s labeled something doesn’t mean it is or it isn’t. mean, you know, so anyways, now I’m like, I’ve been doing music for like forever, feels like for 15 years.

Glen Erickson (12:27)

Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Danielle McTaggart (12:45)

And like full time, but I always did like when I was 13, I was doing it and writing and that’s just kind of what I was doing. But like I’ve just learned so much like when you listen to like a Pink Floyd record or you listen to a Beatles record or you listen to like these amazing artists expressing themselves, like it’s all, it’s all like holy if you will, I think it’s beautiful. It’s like an expression of the human experience.

Glen Erickson (12:45)

Yeah.

Hmm.

Yeah, yeah, I love that. So what was the style, what was the influence on you at that time, like kind of pre-Dear Rouge when you were just sort of setting out? Because I read that you kind of, you you got into a couple of things with people, you were like trying to book your own shows and make things happen for yourself. What was the influence? Where were you headed with your own?

Danielle McTaggart (13:32)

Mm-hmm.

Glen Erickson (13:37)

with your own music at that time.

Danielle McTaggart (13:39)

Like when I was like in Red Deer? ⁓ Well, I got signed with Gaetz Ave to this like random, ⁓ I guess it was like a Christian label because the music was like Christian influenced and faith based or whatever. So we went on tour with like Thousand Foot Cratch at the time and we went on tour with, you know that I’m in touch with that with some of those guys still.

Glen Erickson (13:41)

Yeah.

Oh my… Wow. Oh yeah, oh yeah.

Danielle McTaggart (14:07)

Trevor, McNevin, and we have like a mutual trauma experience.

Glen Erickson (14:07)

Really?

They were some of the

best live performances, honestly, I think that I’d seen at like festivals, because I only ever saw those bands at the Christian Rock festivals. They were pretty great live, yeah. That’s cool.

Danielle McTaggart (14:17)

⁓ yeah, yeah, they’re great.

Yeah, but then,

and then like other, like it’s a whole other world, like the Christian music world is like a whole other world, we did that for a little bit and then it just kind of like petered out and like, so, but booking my own shows and things like that, I guess it happened after I was in like another project that I started and I got like funding through friends and I like went out to Calgary to record it. It was called L.

And then was like, that was kind of more like my like experience that enlightened me to how crazy the music industry can be. And like, it was just such a lesson in like using caution and like, there was just so much about that project that was traumatizing that made me want to quit. And then, and then I met Drew through that season of just like we became friends and he was had another project called McLean and we were both like chatting about music and he would send me bands that

he thought I would like, and he was kind of my like window into, and same with some of these other people, like I discovered Radiohead at the time, I was like, never heard of Radiohead, and then I was like, holy crap, this is insanely good, like it just like, like my, my openness to the sort of when I was starting to make my own project now, aside from like a Christian music kind of project, I was just like, I just want to make music that makes me talk about like my life and.

and ⁓ yeah, my challenges and all of the things. yeah, then Andrew would just send me, you know, just different bands that he thought I would like and like Fleet Foxes and like just indie bands. And then I went to Coachella during that time and that just like rocked my world. Actually, this is a good story. I thought I could ⁓ buy a ticket at the door. So when I got to Coachella…

I was like, hey, where’s the line? I’m going to buy my ticket. And my friends that were there with me, they’re like, you can’t just buy a ticket. You have to buy it like months and a day. So I ended up running through security and sneaking in. then another day, because there was three of the days, on the second day I jumped the fence with some random guy. And then it was so amazing, though, thinking back to it. I just had no clue.

Glen Erickson (16:24)

my goodness.

Well, the timing of it, because Coachella is happening, Ro, just happened. And I just saw like TikToks of people taking these huge risks, trying to jump the barriers too. So that’s funny that you say that. I have this picture in my mind now.

Danielle McTaggart (16:39)

I know, it’s perfect timing.

Well, now they would have gotten they would have gotten

way better with that security because it wasn’t that hard actually. ⁓ But no, and I just think it’s it’s kind of an amazing thing. Like, I almost I kind of grieve it, but I’ll I’m almost like thankful for it too, because I was so like in the dark about how cool

Glen Erickson (16:55)

Ha ha ha.

Danielle McTaggart (17:09)

⁓ how wide the genres were, how big the world was, guess. Like I didn’t really travel till I was like 17, you know? When I think about that now, it’s like my son has been on like 27 flights and he’s two and a half years old. Like it’s like actually crazy. like, yeah. ⁓

Glen Erickson (17:15)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay, I have to

ask you, I have to ask you, like, sometimes I think, especially in indie rock, like, everybody could have a conversation with each other about when they discovered Radiohead as like a shared, like, pillar, it feels like. ⁓ But my mind immediately thinks like, okay, you grew up in the Christian music scene and aspiring of Christian rock and what was big. That means you would have discovered Delirious.

long before you discovered Radiohead, which is, which be technically the other way around, because everybody thinks Delirious was like the Radiohead of Christian music, but you discovered it in the other direction, probably, which I find interesting. ⁓ They’re a really good band. ⁓

Danielle McTaggart (17:57)

like I know all of those. All of those are.

Yeah. Delirious is great.

Mm-hmm.

Glen Erickson (18:16)

So I had read an article earlier, I think it was from 2022 maybe, and when you were talking about the album, I think at that time, an article with both you and Drew, and you had sort of talked about this like early phase of your life. I think you were just talking, they were asking you about how you guys met and the backstory between your relationship and stuff, but.

you had sort of indicated in there that, you sort of reflected it earlier when you just were talking about the L project and going to Calgary to record and getting exposed to the industry. And that are called, use the word jaded, which I found interesting because almost everybody becomes jaded in the music business. I think one of the biggest things I’ve noticed is

Well, just everybody does. the amount of people who seem to run the business that are sometimes the most jaded, ⁓ which was, I think, a big eye-opener to me when I was younger and pursuing things more. ⁓ But to have sort of that level of experience before you even got to do a project that really took off, that can be like a really…

feels to me like that would be a real difficult turning point. I’m curious, what was the thing that sort of swung it back for you? Was it specifically the music you were making when you started making music with Drew? Were there other experiences that maybe sort of turned that around for you? Or I can leave it open to maybe you’ve just stayed jaded.

about the music industry all the time, but I don’t think you could survive as successfully as you have ⁓ if you had. So I’m just curious how that maybe turned for you.

Danielle McTaggart (19:56)

you

⁓ well, my, my, my mind went to like Drew and I, like, I was really did love music and wanted to make it. I just worked with some really horrible, like one specifically horrible, person that really was like in it to take advantage of like me financially and my friends. And like, he was just, he was just a bad person and, and intentionally evil, like I think, but.

So that was like an experience that like really wounded me like truly. And like they considered them friends and stuff too. So it’s like, you know, I think that’s part of why people get so sad is because like friendships get lost and like it feels like you’re making something for good, for good reasons. And it’s just a tough thing because it’s so emotional music and like it’s very rarely just about making something you’re in it with your heart.

But ⁓ I think Drew was like a huge catalyst to just being like, let’s just make it for fun. He knew good people to work with, too. So like half the battle was like, I would be like so excited about this song and then I would hear it, like record it and it would sound like garbage. Like I would be like, this like sucks. Like you need to know the right people to record with and work with or else you’re going to just like pay money for something that no one’s going to like. You know, you don’t even like it. So I think that was what was really tough. So when I started with Gaetz or was

Glen Erickson (21:20)

Yeah.

Danielle McTaggart (21:30)

Dear Rouge with Drew, the things that we were making sounded great and I liked them. And so that was like my first experience of like, this is fun. Like this music sounds fun. And then like the other thing is he like, yeah, he just was like the intention of making Dear Rouge the start of it was just for to enjoy it. And like, I don’t think I really had ever had that like experience of like, I’m just gonna do it for fun. Like I always had this like, like.

road of like, I will do this as my life as my career. And I never really considered it just being for the enjoyment of it, which is really kind of interesting. So I think that like organic sense of like, I’m making something that I think is enjoyable with someone I like that’s helping me like sort of heal. That was like the beginning of Dear Rouge. So I think just like the turning point in the jadedness was maybe or just like, I don’t even think

I think that I would say that jaded is a better word for me now. I don’t think I’m fully jaded. I just think I’m like aware and it’s like a lot of it is kind of yucky and it’s like kind of high school in some ways. But I think that it’s just like you if you love music, you will not stop making it. It’s just a part of your identity. It’s like just a part of who you are. Even if I couldn’t sing, I think I’d be making like just ethereal music.

motivated, like just using any part of myself to create something that I thought was beautiful. Yeah, I could answer this question in so many ways. But I guess I’ll just say like, I don’t think that I was jaded at the time. I think I was just in pain. Like, I think I was just hurt by like, that dream being so like, I wasn’t I was too naive for it. And I was just like, trusted somebody that was like out to get me like was actually a wolf in sheep’s clothing.

Glen Erickson (23:06)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Danielle McTaggart (23:17)

And

I didn’t have the sense enough to like stop that, you know, or like turn the other way for because I was so wanting that so badly. And some of these things that I just needed to learn, I think. But. Yeah, and I think it’s a part of like the lesson of it, and some people do quit and some people don’t get the chance to do it again. But I think that like I think my story is a bit of a miracle. And I think that Drew just meeting him was like.

Glen Erickson (23:28)

Yeah, but a lot of people go through that, right? Sadly.

Danielle McTaggart (23:44)

such a part to play and all of like my destiny and my future was just like being like woven into the whole greater story of like I think my greater message in my life has been like it like don’t stop if like if you have a dream like one of the big questions I ask people is like what would you do if money wasn’t like a part of the story like at least give a day of the week to the thing that you love like

at least like believe in yourself, know, enough to like just don’t, don’t stop it completely that kind of stuff. I feel like you have to earn it a bit. So yeah.

Glen Erickson (24:21)

Yeah,

that one comes up a lot. Like I talk about this with a lot of people, obviously. And you get to hear both sides of that coin a lot, right? Which is a lot of people, when they hear somebody who’s had success state that, I think there’s an immediate, well, that’s easy for them to say, versus,

Danielle McTaggart (24:28)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Glen Erickson (24:46)

you know, talking to the people who, you know, a lot of people try this thing, right? And most people don’t succeed. And end succeed, have to air quotes too, because you would know as well, better than anybody that all the perception based success ⁓ when we talk about what, if money wasn’t. ⁓

question it doesn’t translate the way everybody maybe thinks that it translates to that part of success either anyhow, but Okay before I move on I just got to ask you because you use the word grieve a couple times about a certain era of your life and I’m just curious a little more what you meant By that when you were talking about it

Danielle McTaggart (25:13)

Mm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, right.

⁓ I was talking

about music not being a part as much of my upbringing that I wanted it to be. And I had to be sad about that and let go of that a little bit. Because I think there’s just like theologies that were incorrect and things that I was taught that, and my family was taught that just robbed from us.

Glen Erickson (25:36)

Hmm.

Danielle McTaggart (25:50)

And I think part of that was just like, can’t, like a certain art is not of God or whatever. And I think that that’s like just totally false now. And I think that like even my dad and I like now we’ll go to like a record shop and you’re like, this band, like this band’s amazing. I love, we got to buy this record and we got to listen to it at your house or whatever.

Which one did we do that to recently? Steve Miller band and we put it on and we were like, this is so good. Like both of us were just like, yeah. And like, that’s sad to me, like that we’re doing that now. I mean, it’s, it’s not sad cause we’re doing it, but I think that’s something you should do when you’re like a little teenager, you know, and you’re like, now these records means so much to you into your later life. I think that ⁓ there’s probably a lot of people like me that need to like, just be sad about that. And now like just go deep dive and

Glen Erickson (26:32)

Yeah.

Danielle McTaggart (26:43)

There’s pros and cons to everything in life. Like now I feel like my discovering is like, now it’s a part of my like, intention to like discover. think I don’t, I don’t feel stuck in my music ⁓ discovery because maybe because I wasn’t raised on these like 10 albums, you know? But, but I do think it’s important to be like, that sucked that, you know, I didn’t get to go to like museums and see cultural things that are relevant to, to, you know,

Glen Erickson (27:00)

Yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

Danielle McTaggart (27:12)

like the greater human story because I thought they were sin like that sucks, you know, and I think that I personally still have really deep faith and ⁓ and I love I love my faith so much like my Christian faith, but it’s also really disappointing me these days and well these days and back then too. There’s so much about religion that can be really, really sour and evil. So ⁓ I just like try to fight for the good side of it and ⁓ like

Yeah, so anyways, all that stuff I think is important to hear, especially if you grew up the way that we did, you know.

Glen Erickson (27:43)

Yeah.

Yeah, I love

that you’re willing to talk about it. think some people, I mean, I’ve known a lot of people with the same backstory and some of them want to keep it pretty quiet. You know, they, and I think maybe they haven’t, like you said, they haven’t gone back and actually either grieved it or dealt with it or sort of accepted those things. It’s like, they just want to bury it and put it behind them and live a different life. So.

Danielle McTaggart (27:59)

I mean, yeah, I…

For me,

for a while, was like, it’s just not cool. Like, it’s not cool to like have been raised, like listening to like Avalon or like, you know, ⁓ Switchfoot was cool though. Like some of these bands that you’re like, but this one band that kind of crossed over, you know. But now I feel like I have a good array of music tastes and I get to draw from so much of my experiences now that.

Glen Erickson (28:19)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

That’s true.

Yeah.

Danielle McTaggart (28:40)

I can’t even believe how far I’ve come in the 15 years of learning and growing. I don’t think we give ourselves enough credit for the growth that we’ve done.

Glen Erickson (28:43)

Hmm.

Hmm, that’s a good point. ⁓ Well, I appreciate you telling me about that. It’s a really good point. And I think a lot of people may be able to hear that. I mean, even just hearing people talk, well, we know this. gives us permission sometimes when we hear somebody else talking about it that we can identify with. So I think it’s always important to have those conversations. ⁓ So obviously, Rouge did very well.

Danielle McTaggart (28:51)

So.

Mmm. Yeah.

Glen Erickson (29:16)

for, you know, like it got you the career in music that you said you’ve had for 15 plus years now. ⁓ A lot of that, like right off the bat, interesting to me, like a lot of people, there’s a conversation on the side about like how successful radio will continue to be. ⁓

But there’s this whole like middle layer of this like rock radio or the alt rock and radio in Canada that, you know, has lived from the mid 2000s till now. And, you know, going back to, you know, the place that bands like Metric had in that, that I felt like you guys and… ⁓

I think the same time as you guys, like Mother Mother and July Talk and these bands that all sort of like stepped in and just kind of filled up that space for like quite a while. And then now I see some newer bands, like some friends of mine’s like the Royal Foundry, also the same church background actually. ⁓ And then Kotel Mira and Vakeshark and some of these guys. ⁓

Danielle McTaggart (30:17)

Mm-hmm.

Glen Erickson (30:28)

all sort of jumping in the same space, which I think is really cool and continues to exist.

In that whole rise of your career in Dear Rouge, I’m wondering, I guess my question for you about that era is like,

Was there a point for you?

Where was the point when you felt like, what’s the best word? I’ll just use it, like safe, secure. Like was there ever a point of security? I think a lot of people wonder like, when do I know I’ve made it? I think people always want to ask bands who look, again, perception-based success, but ⁓ you know, the fact that you’re…

getting to do this career in the very typical way. I don’t think it’s the same for artists. So I’m just curious when with the trajectory you had in trying to chase this thing that you wanted, and then those things start happening for you with Dear Rouge, was there a point when you ever kind of landed where you were like, I think this is locked in now?

Danielle McTaggart (31:28)

I don’t know. think the most secure I felt was probably after like Black to Gold and we were like signed with Universal Canada and we were like decided to like live in New York for a year. It was probably 2016 where I was like living like like there I didn’t have many cares. You know, I was like I was ready to like take over the world. I thought like we just thought, you know, once you see like a certain level of success, I think you just keep

you just keep reaching for another level of it. I don’t know if you ever do feel completely like safe in it, but I do I do feel like now I’ve had like a career in music for sure I can say that’s been my main career in music. I guess like I would answer it like that. The job that I’ve known since I married Drew especially because that’s all we’ve ever done is music. So

Glen Erickson (31:57)

Mm-hmm.

Danielle McTaggart (32:20)

I don’t know about safety though. I feel like there’s always a sense of like, it’s gonna get sort of taken from you at any point because it’s so competitive. But I think we were lucky to be in the like analog digital land where like social media hadn’t completely taken over yet. ⁓ And so we still had like, I guess we could sort of, we built our audience like in a traditional sense, as you say. And I think that lasts like longer than

than like what’s happening now. I think that it’s like one and done kind of feeling unless you’re like a very big star. I think it’s like harder to stick around unless you’ve built it traditionally. I know it’s just a very weird time. Like I’m trying to make sense of it. So, but I think that like our live, our live touring world has been so good to us. And I always want to get back to that because I feel like it’s where you get to like have that human interaction and

And we are so, so, we love being that live band that you can trust to have a good time, you know? And yeah, I think that I do feel secure in what I’m doing. It’s just always evolving. And I think now the game or the idea is how can we not, ⁓ how can we stay in the conversation even? That’s the big thing for every band, I think now.

Glen Erickson (33:38)

Yeah, the the attention game. I mean, which is essentially the word for social media marketing is attention marketing so much and and so it’s really taken over. You’re completely correct. And that’s the thing.

Danielle McTaggart (33:43)

you

Yeah, yeah

Glen Erickson (33:55)

That’s the thing that it’s got to be so hard depending on your personality type, right? Like the way people deal with this looming, but the other shoe is going to drop. Somebody is going to take this away from me someday. I mean, depending on your, you know, personality types like that can be extremely anxiety producing, right?

Danielle McTaggart (34:15)

Yeah, and

I think that you can really, you need to find ways to just trust the process and trust yourself. And also, the other thing I think about often is no one can stop you from creating. It’s a job thing that you’re talking about. It’s a money thing you’re talking about at the end of the day. Can I do this full time? That’s what I want to know.

Glen Erickson (34:39)

Yep. Yep.

Danielle McTaggart (34:43)

I think that’s just where you have to be like adaptable and but it is I would say for a lot of people though it’s like it’s like what am I gonna do if this is all that I’m good at you know

Glen Erickson (34:55)

Yeah, well, you hear that a lot too. I’ve heard like the expression like, ⁓ don’t know what else I would do because this is the only thing I know how to do supposedly, right? And the money thing, right, is such a sliding scale because I remember using that phrase a lot of times. Like my dream would be if I could just pay the bills with this and not have to do something else. Like that seemed to be this baseline, right? But then…

Danielle McTaggart (35:04)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Glen Erickson (35:22)

I get to as far down the road as I am now, and I’m like, the number of my friends who have paid the bills one way or the other, like I got friends who are like traveling troubadours and they play all over the world, like little folks, just them and their acoustic 300 days a year.

Danielle McTaggart (35:39)

Wow.

Glen Erickson (35:39)

Like

these guys will never have RSPs, right? Like, ⁓ so, you know, it’s one thing to say, yeah, I could pay the bills and then you all of a start to grow up a little more and realize life’s even bigger. You have children or you want to have children that I’m sure I can ask you about that, how that changes everything about your outlook and perspective as well, right? About ⁓ where that baseline, the baseline is going to move, I guess is what I’m really getting at as you grow up.

Danielle McTaggart (36:01)

you

Yeah,

100%. yeah, you learn to kind of like, the things you thought were cool just start changing and yeah, you definitely evolve and it’s just like some of the things I just find funny now. I’m just like, what are we like? I don’t know. It’s a lot of silliness. It’s a lot of ⁓ fluff.

Glen Erickson (36:09)

Yeah.

Danielle McTaggart (36:29)

and ⁓ but it’s like shiny so that’s like entertainment you know so they’re like there’s that.

Glen Erickson (36:33)

Exactly. Yeah.

Okay, so I want to ask you a number of questions about Larkk and your transition to this kind of a project and what you put out and where it sort of evolved from. I think what’s interesting about it to me on the outside is that it just really, it captures like a number of like

differences, right? Like, ⁓ I’ll even start from here. Like, you sort of alluded to it, but you’re like, dear Rouge and your marriage are

completely intertwined with one another, which is a unique identity to have as a couple, right? When you’re trying to find, like every couple in the world tries to find their identity of who they are together. ⁓ So going off and starting something by yourself again, that far down the road.

Danielle McTaggart (37:07)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Glen Erickson (37:24)

What is that experience like? Does it feel easy? Does it feel like you have to be extra intentional to try to make it happen? Did it feel foreign to you again or was there none of that in place? I’m curious about what that felt like to start doing something on your own.

Danielle McTaggart (37:39)

Ahem.

⁓ I was like really ready to just to just try something new and my artistic nature is just like ever like I’m just such a curious person and and working with Drew is an amazing thing like we’ve loved it and it’s De’aruj is not going away like we were writing a record right now we’re doing so much with that still we’re growing and evolving that but I think this was just like a very cool

⁓ Well, I see Larkk as being like a long term plan. I love sitting at a piano and just playing music and singing and like just the idea that I could just do that. I could just go to somebody’s house and play a set. could go do this magical set in the forest. You know, I could like, I could expand this into so many different things. Like I love painting. I love that kind of stuff. I love creative directing. I love creating worlds. I love fantasy. love

you know, all these things. I was like, Dear Rouge is a very specific vein. It’s like alternative. It’s kind of like UK inspired. It’s like it’s like kind of grungy, but it’s also like epic. Like that’s there’s only so much you can do with that creatively. You can do a lot because we didn’t put it in like a very specific like it’s like alternative pop. So there’s like a lot of things that Deer Rouge has done and like messing with that. ⁓

But I just think it was something that I was making that I just felt needed to be told more, even the story of our journey to familyhood. And I just used it as a grief healing project that I ended up working with a poet that I love. And I worked with just, got to expand my tool belt, my horizons.

And I just like, was just like, this is super fun. Like all of the things that I learned from Deer Rouge, can, can implement into this and it can just be like its own life force, its own egg in another basket. And, ⁓ I don’t think it take has taken away from anything. Actually, I think it’s made me more motivated in, ⁓ in Deer Rouge as well. Cause it’s just like, I get to do this thing. I’m very thankful for.

but Larkk has been like a really nice breath of fresh air of also like proving to myself a lot. Like I made it out of like another need to heal through music and it’s just been, it’s just been a magical, magical experience for the most part.

Glen Erickson (40:14)

Hmm. I

know I had read that the last album for Dear Rouge in 2024, a lot of you had talked about a lot of thematically was you dealing with infertility issues leading up to the birth of your son. So.

The writing of the music started, like what became Larkk was sort of a part of that same era. Is that the correct assumption?

Danielle McTaggart (40:39)

Yeah, well,

Larkk started, I started writing just random piano pieces and music during like COVID and during that same era. So that was all kind of connected. It was just like this big wave of like sadness, you know, it was just all really, really unknown and really hard and really lonely and really like going from like venues and people and fun and like dreaming to like

Glen Erickson (40:49)

Okay.

Yeah.

Danielle McTaggart (41:04)

nothingness, you know, like to like the world is ending and and everything sucks. Like it was just really, really dark for like somebody like I I’m just always like silver lining type person. But but it was just like really hard to find it. And so like like I just like music. Music is such a good friend. And and like you just definitely process through through it. Any musician would say that, actually. So.

Glen Erickson (41:09)

Yeah.

Hmm.

Danielle McTaggart (41:30)

It’s not surprising.

Glen Erickson (41:30)

Yeah,

and I mean, as you kind of already identified, like the nature of Deer Rouge, you know, and pop, you know what mean? In general, that can create such, I guess I’m just thinking when you’re experienced a lot of like dark feelings, a lot of like unanswerable emptiness, it really in this business, I think gets, ⁓

escalated, like it’s overblown with the fact that you’re going between things that are so performative with very little like substance to it, I guess you could say, ⁓ to dealing with like, it’s not, the word is an apostro syndrome, almost like hypocrisy feeling I’ve talked to some people about, you know, when they…

you know, I’m up there, I’m performing, I’m looking like I’m happy, I’m having the best time of my life, I’m still a rock star, you know, but people don’t know I’m going through these things. It can become a pretty wide gap in someone’s life, which is hard to deal with. ⁓ But writing about it is extremely vulnerable. And then sharing that music, I think, is maybe one of the most vulnerable things I’ve known about in my human experience so far.

⁓

Was that easy to do or was that a hard choice to make about bringing that kind of music out and decide you’re gonna do something with it?

Danielle McTaggart (42:55)

I think it was hard, but I also think it was like necessary. Like I think there’s some things in your life that you’re just like, I like, kind of like need this hard though. Like it’s better than not sharing it. Like it, it really is like, that’s like the sixth stage of grief is like sharing it and being a part of the community with it and giving back with it. Like that’s how you know, you’re healed, I think. So just feels like I’m like in such a good spot to be like, this is a part of.

of that, you know, that step to like towards feeling whole ⁓ in whatever sense that means, you know, to me. And and for others, though, now I do feel like a sense of like, is going to be helpful to others. And like, that makes me excited. Like, it gives me a lot of motivation. But it’s also very specific to like specific place. So I say no to a lot of things with like, I’m like, the venue is just weird. Like, it won’t work. Like, I’ve said no to

Glen Erickson (43:41)

Mm.

Danielle McTaggart (43:51)

quite a few things now. Like I’m just, don’t want it to be, it’s not like building a traditional career as we’ve been talking about. It’s just not the same. It’s like a spiritual experience and it’s like, there’s a lot of tears. There’s a lot of beautiful, like it’s just beautiful. like I’m trying for like theaters and black box type scenarios where it can be like a really controlled scenario and like really.

really intentional and it’s been awesome. Yeah.

Glen Erickson (44:20)

Yeah, yeah, you want to curate the whole, you want to curate the whole experience for people,

as opposed to typical, quote unquote, touring where, especially if you’re like, it’s not like you’re starting over, but it probably has felt in some ways like the starting over because you’re embryonic and having to grow a thing again. And the touring life or just playing shows, you know, you end up being beheld to the venue, you get booked in. ⁓

Danielle McTaggart (44:36)

Yeah.

Glen Erickson (44:46)

somebody else’s sound guy who doesn’t understand you possibly, like all these different factors, which I’m sure, yeah, as you just described, like why would you subject yourself to that if it’s gonna destroy it?

Danielle McTaggart (44:53)

I just don’t.

Yeah, 100%. I just, I just, I

exactly, I just say, no, it’s not gonna work. I just, every show I’ve had, like the team that I really knew could make it happen and stuff. So, and like knowing as much as I know now with music and what I have learned, I just, I like, I’ve put it into this. So.

Glen Erickson (45:09)

Yeah.

Danielle McTaggart (45:17)

I know, I just like know when it’s just not gonna fly. So that’s been like kind of cool to be like, this isn’t gonna be a cool experience for anybody. No one’s gonna like enjoy this and no one’s gonna make money. So like, we shouldn’t do that. But like, these are all the things that you learn as you go and you just kind of like, but so far every show I’ve done with Larkk, I’ve been like, that was amazing and 100 % worth it. like, so that’s just how I’m.

Glen Erickson (45:25)

Yeah.

Yeah, well…

Hmm.

Danielle McTaggart (45:45)

taking my life right now in that regard is just like just the intention that I can have right now is very cool as what and I think is what Dear Rouge has afforded me is is that ability to say like I want that or I don’t want that and that’s that’s really meaningful and I’m very very thankful for that so.

Glen Erickson (46:04)

Yeah, that’s really bold, I was gonna say, but it’s also really mature, right? I think that obviously shows choices of somebody who understands how every aspect ⁓ of this job works and about how music both presentation and connection and then value on the other side of it, even to be able to have the insight to know how that works is obviously.

Yeah, an extremely mature choice and direction to take it. ⁓ So we had talked a little bit about influences at the start, right? And I think we all sort of know that when you’re starting out in music and you have this big dream, like those things are massively a part of how you make music, how you write music. ⁓

you’re trying to really just learn how to recreate the things that inspired you, right? And you kind of want to just be part of this fabric of this whole music community so bad. But I’ve also talked to lot of people that, you know, when they get 10, 15, 20 years down the road and then the influences seem to be less a part of the songwriting and they’re literally just writing from, they’ve learned how to just sort of write from their own heart.

and whatever mixes in there is in there about how things came out. So I’m curious in a shift, for lack of other term, as drastic a shift as Larkk is from Dear Rouge stylistically, there influences present that you sort of wanted to take in a direction or was it just your own personal musical evolution? Like when you sat down on a piano, this is just what came out.

Danielle McTaggart (47:42)

⁓ I think it was mostly that, but I grew up, I learned Royal Conservatory. I didn’t go super far, but I went enough to know decent. I think I got to grade eight. So I ⁓ got my old books out and I was playing those and that was inspiring me. I also, I love, do you know Oliver Arnold? He’s an Icelandic.

Glen Erickson (48:08)

Yeah,

yeah, very much.

Danielle McTaggart (48:10)

like, we like

we listen to a lot of that kind of stuff. There’s this artist named Bonobo. I think he’s he’s either from the UK or is he’s American? I don’t know, either. I don’t know. But he’s amazing. And like we do listen to a lot of like, like just to calm us, we listen to a lot of stuff like that. And so that was kind of there. But I like there’s this piano artist named Yo Beving that like is amazing. And like I just

I just was like piano is just such a beautiful instrument and it was it was just kind of organically happened and who doesn’t like love strings and who doesn’t love like, you know, when you like hear a Billie Eilish record too, you’re like, like her songs are gorgeous. Like if you hear all the parts and all the melodies and things like that kind of stuff was influencing me and like so I just I feel like I was I was just creating a sound that sort of like organically was coming out.

Glen Erickson (48:48)

Yeah.

Danielle McTaggart (49:05)

And then like finding those influences as I was recording it. ⁓ But yeah, so the Larkk project is lush and it’s beautiful. It’s got lots of arrangements, but then it comes back to nothing. There’s lots of like building, there’s lots of like ambient parts, but it’s mostly just like pretty melancholy piano based stuff. it’s like, yeah, and it’s all about the words and the vocals and like the like space.

Glen Erickson (49:09)

Yeah.

Yeah, very much the space. made me think of there’s another, shoot, what was the name? I don’t know how to pronounce it right. It’s like Lux or L-U-C-H-S in all caps is artist ⁓ who I think I’ve probably found it’s similar around time as Oliver Arnold. So anyhow, one thing I was curious about, so.

Danielle McTaggart (49:45)

Okay.

yeah.

Glen Erickson (49:56)

Musically, definitely there’s like a shift. Stylistically, you are going to do something different than that. ⁓ I find what’s interesting too is your voice is different a little. Like the stylistic phrasing things. Like your rock voice is probably one of the best rock voices we’ve had in Canada in a very long time.

Danielle McTaggart (50:23)

Aww, that’s nice. Thank you.

Glen Erickson (50:24)

Well,

I listen to a lot, like I listen to a lot of like Brood’s, Fantagram, Yaya’s, The Kills. you know, and sometimes I would sit and listen on like Sonic, you know, alt radio in Edmonton. And I would think, I don’t think most of the people here even know.

Danielle McTaggart (50:30)

Mmm, yeah. Yeah.

Glen Erickson (50:44)

like the reference to me of where you’ve you fit in and belonged with like in that regard right which i think is like pretty incredible control ⁓ and then i was listening to lark and i’m obviously hearing a lot more softer you know more drawn out phrasing even vibrato which didn’t almost appear ever in in dear rouge songs type things so

Danielle McTaggart (50:48)

Mmm. Yeah.

Thank you.

Mm-hmm.

Glen Erickson (51:11)

⁓ I’m just sort of curious about how somebody, know, a strong vocalist is you like how you made those choices, how conscious those choices were, but how you were singing.

Danielle McTaggart (51:21)

Yeah, think like,

yeah, like, well, there’s so many things you need to know about like, studio stuff to like, kind of understand that too, because there’s different types of mics, and that get out different tones from voices. And if you’re singing super softly, then you end up like with a lot of compression and different things on a microphone. And then the way that they mix it in, it’s like very different from like a rock thing where you’re, you’re like belting and there’s like

Glen Erickson (51:33)

Yeah.

Danielle McTaggart (51:48)

There’s also compression on that, there’s also other ways that you vocally produce something, that you hear certain tones and certain elements of voices. And then they also, you can put all kinds of ⁓ different tones, different ways that you can do three vocals on top of each other to make your voice sound richer and deeper. And there’s just so many tricks you can.

Glen Erickson (51:58)

Mm-hmm.

Danielle McTaggart (52:17)

You can just do all kinds of things and it’s endless. So I think with with Larkk, it was just like, this is just like really raw and meant to be like emotional. And so that’s just kind of how I took it when I performed it. So and then how they mix it and how they do that stuff is is very much how I sing. But I don’t get those opportunities as much with Dirge because the songs are so like in your face, you know.

Glen Erickson (52:41)

Yeah. Yeah.

Danielle McTaggart (52:41)

And it’s

all really fun. Like I love trying it all. I love doing it all. So it’s like you get to expand and grow.

Glen Erickson (52:48)

Yeah, it’s definitely cool to have an opportunity to do something that is a whole nother, like to move into a whole nother room, you know what I mean? With your voice like that way. Okay, so the last thing I just want to ask about, because I did read about, and you referenced it earlier, ⁓ writing songs with the poet that was a big influence, which I think is… ⁓

Danielle McTaggart (52:57)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Glen Erickson (53:14)

just thematically so in step with everything that you’ve talked about with with your Larkk project and where you’ve kind of gone with that. ⁓ What’s interesting is when I was listening through, well, I’ll back up for a second, actually. So the first the first song I heard. shit, I’m terrible with remembering things. What was the first single you released with with words?

Danielle McTaggart (53:41)

⁓

like Devastation’s Bliss.

Glen Erickson (53:43)

That one,

yeah. So that one I was gonna mention, because it sounded out of all the songs closer to your dear rouge sort of tone and phrasing, at least the phrasing, I think a bit. But then I remember listening through and I got to First Kiss. And so that one, I immediately got caught by the lyrics. And I don’t get caught by lyrics very often, despite that I listen to them so intensely, but it takes…

Danielle McTaggart (53:52)

Mm-hmm, okay

Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Glen Erickson (54:08)

I feel like it takes something for something to really catch me. And there was a real clear sense of like, this is telling a story inside of the story right now. ⁓ And it wasn’t until afterwards that I found out you co-wrote that with ⁓ the poet. So I’m wondering, just wondering about that experience and whether that type of thing takes a little longer.

Danielle McTaggart (54:19)

Mm-hmm.

Glen Erickson (54:33)

to work it out or if it’s easier.

Danielle McTaggart (54:34)

Ahem.

⁓ it’s cool that you bring up the phrasing, because I think that like phrasing is something that like poetry, like when we went back and forth writing that song, it’s like he would send me stuff and I would be like, this doesn’t work within like how I would sing it. So I’d have to like switch up how I would sing it to like get fitted into how it would flow with the music and stuff. So I think some of that maybe has been influenced by like working with collaborating with him on, on lyrics and

Glen Erickson (54:55)

Mm-hmm

Danielle McTaggart (55:04)

Yeah, it’s easier I think when you’re working with somebody as amazing as Derek C. Brown. Like he’s such an amazing poet. Like his word usage is his humor. Like he’s just really talented. So it’s easy to be like, that’s really cool. Like there’s a line in that song, like it’s about all about a first and last kiss. And one of the last lines of it is, and the last kiss is on a couch you never lay on again.

And I was like, that’s such a cool thought. Like he wrote that, sent that to me. And I was like, that’s so good. Like people throw out furniture based on memories. I’m like, that’s really rad. So.

Glen Erickson (55:34)

OK.

Yeah,

so that’s the one that jumped out at me too, right? Like, and I know you’re never supposed to ask somebody what it means to them or an artist, because they’re like, they always deflect. it almost felt to me like,

Danielle McTaggart (55:48)

Mm-hmm.

Just saying goodbye. Yeah, no.

Glen Erickson (55:59)

Um, you know how there’s this sort of typical thing in a relationship when you’re dating and like the couch is where you like make out most of the time when you’re dating for a long time. And then at some point it transitions to a more serious relationship and then everything goes to the bedroom maybe. Um, and it just sort of, I just right off the bat, I was like,

Danielle McTaggart (56:11)

Yep.

Glen Erickson (56:23)

I’m pretty sure that’s not what they meant, but I was just struck by the fact like I interpreted it a very literal way right off the bat. And then I just thought, yeah, it just felt like that’s why I had to go back and listen to the whole song right away all the way through again to try to get a sense. ⁓ So I was wondering like, is that, is writing with Derek like…

Danielle McTaggart (56:29)

That’s cool. Yeah.

That’s great. ⁓

Glen Erickson (56:45)

Is this something you’re going to try to continue to do? Do you have the opportunity or the desire to do more of?

Danielle McTaggart (56:48)

Yeah, he’s amazing.

And yes, I definitely love collaborating. With Larkk, I always want to make sure that it’s me and another person is sharing in that. And I’m involving them in what I would like to do. And that’s something that I’ve been really adamant about. He’s super great. He’s so respectful and wants to do what I… He’s a great person to work with.

Yeah, and he asks good questions and and I can take it or leave whatever I want and I love that and that’s just like a good collaborator in general. And ⁓ yeah, it’s amazing. I couldn’t have like gotten to this level of awesome without him. So it’s definitely something I want to like always explore when you have like relationships like that that produce really cool things. Yeah, you have to like be really be treasured them, you know.

Glen Erickson (57:24)

Yeah.

Yeah.

So why use the moniker Larkk and not just go as Danielle McTiger after sort of building a Korean reputation at that point?

Danielle McTaggart (57:49)

Ahem.

Yeah, it’s a good question. think the producer asked me that too. I was like, it’s just not as, it’s just not as dreamlike. I feel like Larkk is kind of a character and I like that thought. And it’s not like people can’t find out that it’s, you know, that it’s me. Like, so I just was like, I don’t think it’s going to be that big of a deal. And also like my name just doesn’t sound like

It’s a nice name, but it just doesn’t sound like what I’m making. So I was like, ⁓ I just want to

Glen Erickson (58:23)

that’s totally fair. That’s totally fair. ⁓ That’s cool. Well, ⁓ I appreciate your time very much and ⁓ chatting with me a little bit about your journey with things. ⁓ think, yeah, I think I’ve been especially interested just in the choices and the opportunities, but ⁓ especially fascinated, I think, with

Danielle McTaggart (58:24)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, so I did.

Glen Erickson (58:50)

to some of the things that you talked about. And I remember reading somewhere that with all the things you’ve gone through that you would have an interest in, you know, being able to teach the next generation, so to speak, a little bit, which I think even after being able to talk with you, I don’t know where those opportunities are in Canada. I’ve like been searching for them more ever since my time with Alberta Music and watching a development program like like

and other ones that I’ve been involved with. There’s no school for this. There’s no university degree really for a career music like you said, like you learned a very productive way through timing in Canada of being able to get on the road and how to actually build connection with the audience that lasts. But…

I’d love if there were more opportunities in Canada and I think you would be, especially after talking with you, a great person ⁓ to be involved in teaching new artists and emerging aspiring artists ⁓ all these different facets of things they need to learn and understand and how to stick up for themselves in the shitty moments and ⁓ how to make bold choices.

Hopefully something like that comes around. That’d be great. But yeah, thank you so much. Appreciate the time and wish you all the best and hope to see you guys on the road again, maybe sometime soon. Yeah. Cool. Thank you.

Danielle McTaggart (1:00:04)

⁓ thank you.

Thanks, Glenn.

Yeah.

That’d be awesome. Thanks for having me.

Glen Erickson (1:00:28)

Welcome to episode 42. You welcome. I ruined it for you. Welcome to episode 42. How are you doing? Yeah. Well, you just, you just botched it. You’re supposed to say it’s post fame with Alexi. If you’re going to throw it, you gotta sorry. Let me restart. Let me restart. Okay. Okay. And.

Welcome to post fame with Alexi. It’s episode 42. How are we feeling today? Okay, we’re feeling I don’t know like that sounds like it’s a Children’s episode. Yeah, I know you gotta work on that but not now during the exam season Yeah, thanks for the effort though. Thank you Great Yeah Anyways, let’s move on. so how did you like this episode?

Okay, that’s just not the way we start these things. Okay, before we launch into the episode chat, you sent me a thing and I passed it on to Josh from Hot Takes. just wanted to do a little update because… He looked down at me and I didn’t know that you did that. So it was about, you know, in our Hot Takes special episode with Josh, we got into the like splicing down of all of the subgenres in Spotify and the meaning and reason behind it and all that kind of stuff. And so you had sent me a message.

about new sort of introduction of some new sub genres. One of them being art rock. Art rock. So did you see my follow up text? No, I don’t read everything. so you hate me. No, I know that. No, said, okay, yeah, so I was listening to a playlist because sometimes Spotify will like generate a playlist for you with like, you know, whatever fun title. then it’ll list below it in very small print.

Also listened to and then a bunch of the sub genres that they think are like in that playlist Yeah, and so it had made me this really I don’t know It was a good one stuff I’ve been listening to lately and then it was like also see did it add it and then art rock and I was like, that’s a new one for me so clicked it and it was like a lot of the people we’ve been talking about on hot takes with Josh and it was like Cameron winter geese ⁓ Racing Mount Pleasant

And then there was some like Radiohead, Pink Floyd, like some of those classics. And I was like, and this was my follow up text to you. said, ⁓ like, I know this is apparently been a subgenre of rock music for many years, but Spotify’s putting some wild things in there because I went then, cause I was like, I feel like the strings of Elso. did a little Google and you know, it has been a thing for many years. And it’s like when people take rock as a genre and it’s not like what’s popular and they, it’s not quite alternative, but they do like, you know,

something new with the rock sound. And so I’m like, that makes sense with our conversation with like, especially with like geese, were saying like it’s, you know, Josh had said like, this isn’t rock. So I didn’t like it when I first heard it, when I went and listened with fresh ears, like I do like it. You know what mean? And I’m like, that makes sense though with art rock. it’s like, if you just said, this is rock to someone, they’d be like, well, that’s not what rock sounds like. When you throw art on there as in like, you know, they’re experimenting. It’s not what’s like

basically the norm right now for that genre. I was like, this checks out. But then you have like Radiohead and Pink Floyd and stuff on there, which are now kind of like, you know, pretty like classic, I would say. So then I’m like, you know, if Art Rock is like people doing artistic and different things with what’s currently defined as rock, you can’t really throw on a span of like 40 or 50 years of music on there.

Well, I you can if you know that that music was specifically defining that all through against whatever else it was being lined up against, right? Because categorization in its nature is about how we’re lining everybody up against each other and saying that they’re not all the same. And that’s definitely always going to be primarily in like what’s currently happening. Then there has to be a little space about how it lines up through history, too.

And I won’t get into it, but I think obviously like there’s even a wide level of subjectivity to how you would interpret the word art as it’s applied to a genre of art, but, or to rock. But I think that, you know, you saying like, why radio head or Pink Floyd? think of like a guy like David Byrne and talking heads have been like this through history. think that this idea that there was this notion through

history of art for art’s sake. In other words, real art or some people with more applaud and elevate art that was made just for the sake of being made by the inspiration of the artist and not caring about if people like it. Yeah. Do you know what mean? And I think maybe that is a little bit in the mix there about the definition of art rock. I’m suspicious of that, especially when you say who some of these bands are, cause like, you know, radio heads sort of attention.

to detail to just like the way we talked about geese talking about Radiohead of mixing David Bowie’s on there. Time signatures. Well, David Bowie especially. He did so much thematic stuff. He didn’t do it to be on the radio necessarily. You know what I mean? He did it because he loved mixing performance with themes with the music and trying new things. He wasn’t afraid.

to do something that might not be commercially successful. I think that that’s a common sense on here now that I’m really browsing it. And like, it’s interesting too, because then, I mean, you go down a rabbit hole, then, you know, it’s like art rock mix. And then like all the sub-genres that are in like the small print underneath are always going to be there. So this, I found this from it being a small print, but now there’s small print under it. And it’s indie alternative, ⁓ protopunk, don’t know what that one is, protopunk, I don’t know. And then like avant-garde.

So like, it checks out. I’m okay with it. Interesting. Interesting stuff. The episode. Just real quick on the end of that. There was also a post by Dan Mangan either today or yesterday. I think I saw it this morning. And he was just talking from his car about, you know, people trying to make controversy about finding out like how geese kind of got broken wide open. Like their career got broke.

You know what I mean? To be successful that they were using all these different sort of tools to sort of game the system of like getting exposure and stuff. you know, his, his point was that he really admires the band, the music, all that kind of stuff. But his real point was like how incredibly sad it is that a band that that’s that good has to in today’s industry resort to those, like we shouldn’t criticize them because they have to resort to those measures.

to even try to break through, right? Because of the way the business is. but I think, yeah, I thought that was interesting. Probably could spend a little more time thinking about that too. Anyhow, yeah, Danielle McTaggart episode. I liked it. Danielle with Dear Rouge and her solo act Larkk. Yeah, I was listening and it was just so interesting because there was numerous times where…

she would start like talking about something or bringing something up. And I knew before she was done talking that it was going to like hit home for you. Know what mean? Because you’ve got me profiled. Yeah, you’re profile. So well. was just funny because it was like one of those episodes where it’s like, because sometimes I listen to them. Yeah. And I feel like I’m listening as like someone who’s, you know, hopped on Spotify and listen to the episode. Like I don’t.

necessarily know you or know the artist. And then there’s some where like, I just am so pulled out of that because, yeah, like there was so many times where she was speaking and I was like, oh, I know this is going to resonate with you. Like I know the way you were about to respond. Yeah. And that’s just where my brain jumped. And I was like, I was just getting pulled out of being like a listener into just being like, oh, you’re going to like, know, XYZ or you’re going to have something to say about this or that. Like it was just, it was good. Like

You know how I’ve said multiple times how I love how often it happens that I meet somebody and I’m meeting them like on a screen. And so I’m meeting for the first time to talk about their career or things that we share in common as well as questions I have and making them talk about themselves in a way that they’ve been asked a thousand times sometimes. And they’re also hoping to ask in a way that they haven’t been asked, but not get too personal. But in this instance of

feeling like here’s somebody that like, ⁓ we could be friends. You know how I thought about it afterwards? You know what version of that is though for me? You know, this is going to sound a little bit weird, but like if I go back to sort of like high school days where everything’s really surfacey, you’re not thinking deeply or you’re just like reacting to how you feel about things and what draws you to things, you know what I mean? And you’re, you know, I’m a 17 year old boy, 18 year old boy starting to like see the world.

a little more clearly, you know, the way that I start being interested in girls might be less about just how they look or how they dress. And I was very much at 17 or 18, the guy who would go into a room or a party with a lot of energy, right? And want to sort of be the life of the party and want to connect, you know, with the coolest and the hottest, all these types of people. And

This is, I’m trying to make sure this makes sense where I’m going with this. But so what I always ended up doing in finding people that I really would gravitate that I thought were cool of all the versions of super cool in a room, I inevitably gravitated to the one that I would end up in a corner having a deep talk with. Do you know what I mean? And to me, like, that’s how I felt after my conversation with Danielle was like,

She for sure would be the cool one in the room that, you know, regardless of all the versions that might be available to me, I would always gravitate because I know I’d get into that authentic good conversation. Yeah. And it would like leave an impact, leave a mark on me, impact me. So yeah, that’s I felt. when I was listening, like that’s funny. When I was listening, it was just like some of the topics you guys just naturally got into and like could share about like both of you.

It was like, yeah, kind of like same as you just said, like there’s been times that even like my work where someone’s like new or, you know, there’s someone who got hired. haven’t spent much time around. then we get chatting and then all of a sudden, like a four hour shift goes by and we keep chatting, chatting, chatting. And then we’re sitting at the bar for an hour after our shift getting into this like really deep conversation. It’s happened like a few times with people at work and then we’d like become friends. But I’m like, it felt like that. You know, like

It felt like the coworker that like I’ve had like small conversations with in like passing by. And then like, this was the conversation that we like both sat at the bar and got chatting. And then all of a sudden it’s an hour later and you know, our drinks are finished and we can’t like go home kind of thing. And I was like, that’s a good, it’s a good conversation. Yeah. I agree. Um, the product pulled out that I, we can just go over quickly just cause I thought it was interesting was like, and I’ll preface with this.

I find it interesting because I feel like it’s something we’ve talked around for so many episodes of the podcast. We’ve never like really addressed it face on. Okay. And then she like said it and like it was you guys talked about it and I was just like, like, you know, that’s a good way to like name this thing. But it was when she was saying like there’s no school for this. Yeah.

Like we’ve had so many conversations about, you know, the hustle and, know, having to do so much of your own work as an artist and like how important connections are and how much you like, you know, benefit from being able to do like your own things and, you know, just all of those conversations. But we’ve never actually been like, ⁓ like, you know, where does all that kind of like stem from? Yep. And it’s, I think that was a really good way.

of phrasing it and no one’s really phrased it that way before. Cause so many people have hopped on and like talked about that struggle, especially as like a starting artist or, know, just an artist who hasn’t got that kind of break people talk about necessarily. But, ⁓ yeah, it was like, you know, just something that you like, just how many people are starting a career without actually having an education. Yeah. It’s essentially what everybody’s doing. It’s like if

I was like starting a job that’s like career. like if I graduated high school and I was like, I want to be an Olympic sprinter. You know what I mean? And it was like, okay, but there’s no like university degree for that. No, you just know that all your friends tell you that you run faster than them. Yeah, that’s what I mean. So that that’s enough wind in your sails. so fast. It’s like, okay, you can’t get a degree in sprinting. You know what I mean? Yeah. And so

You can go to the track and you can show up and you can run every morning and have discipline and, you know, struggle and email and, know, do all the things for yourself. But yeah, like there’s no online like textbook you can buy. I just think that’s a good point. A really interesting thing. ⁓ To like, yeah, I guess. Like draw the curtain back on a little bit. ⁓ Yeah. And also like.

that your comment about like

I don’t know how to phrase this properly, like, cause I was writing in my notes and they don’t really make a lot of sense if I’m being honest, but, it’s okay. Just like when you were talking about mentorship in that sense, cause there’s no school. So it’s like, what is there? And you were kind of saying like, there’s mentorship and how that’s such a huge piece. Yeah. I’ve talked about that a couple of times on shows where it’s like, it’s really more of an apprenticeship model in the business. Maybe not just with the artists, but especially in the industry side. So maybe that’s different.

than what we’re talking about here. mean, yeah, I just think that’s interesting. Especially like peak performance and like all of that. It’s just, I mean, we’ve talked about it. Like, yeah, more things. Yeah, you’re right. And I, yeah. And I thought that she would be somebody just the way she talked. I’m like, you would be a good mentor, think, in this business. Yeah. Yeah. It’d be, yeah, it’d be interesting to see that. Yeah, I would still love to see.

kind of a thing happen on a grander scale. Yeah. So I just need to, you know, I almost, I almost had it once. I just need to find that million billionaire again, who just wants to bankroll the division. Yeah. Just build a larger, wider, grander Canadian training ground for stuff. just win the lottery, both of us. ⁓ okay. Yep. Yeah. Glenn’s music school, not school. Yeah.

Something like that. Something like that. Maybe I’ll tell that. Yeah, nevermind. Okay. Yeah. Well, I appreciate the insights. I think that’s a good point. It is something we do keep talking around. I hope that I find more sort of different angles and versions of it with different people, because it’s all these different perspectives that kind of fill in the circle. You know what I mean? And fill in the real That’s what I really like lately is like…

You know, I’ll pick out a theme or something that I liked from an episode. And then, ⁓ like, you know, you think about it on like, yeah, a grander scale. And then you’re like, you know, on episode, whatever, like this person mentioned it, but in this like different way. then like, you know, they talked about this gap and then, you know, actually, this person talked about that gap. really like, I don’t know, the more episodes we do, the more the like fill in the blanks get filled in. Yeah, I like it. Me too. Yeah.

And then when they’re all filled in, I’ll have to find some new subject matter to pursue. Some new angles that I need explained. You should just be one of those podcasters who like explores different songs and their backgrounds and stuff at that point. I think a song exploder has been around since like 2014 or 15. Yeah, they kinda got that one on you. But, okay. Okay. I’ll see you next week when I’m a free woman. I’ll see you next week, free woman.

Okay, good luck. I love yous.