Becca McFarlane is a swan

ep43 – Becca McFarlane is a swan

Glen Erickson (00:01)

We’ve all seen them, those people who seem to glide through life with a certain effortless grace. They move from one project to the next, seemingly unbothered while the rest of us are just trying to find our keys. But today’s guest offered me a different perspective on that poise. She compares herself to a swan. On the surface, as she says, a swan is the picture of tranquility, but beneath the waterline, it is just kicking like hell to stay afloat.

Yes, this was a sidebar to some shared ADHD commiseration. In the creative world, we often mistake the gliding for ease, when in reality it’s the result of a massive amount of expended internal energy systems and a bit of type A chaos management. The best make it look easy.

Becca McFarlane is an Edmonton raised Montreal based creative director and illustrator who has spent her career navigating the high intensity waters of the Canadian indie music scene and the comedy world of Just for Laughs. She’s a Juno nominated artist who is designed for the literal soundtrack of our lives, working with the likes of Tegan and Sara, Arcade Fire and Djo That’s D J O. Yeah, the guy from Stranger Things.

But beyond the impressive portfolio is a story about the courage to stop facilitating everyone else’s dream long enough to make sure her own was still breathing. This one really hit home. My name is Glen Erickson. This is Almost Famous Enough. Thanks for spending your time with us. This is Becca McFarlane

Glen Erickson (01:55)

Well, thank you, Becca, for joining me on the podcast to talk. I’m gonna guess this isn’t like.

part of your normal weekly, monthly requests maybe? you get asked to do some different things in your role like this or not?

Becca (02:10)

Well, I’m currently on the job hunt right now, so I’m doing a lot of interviews, like, you know, just like job interviews. So definitely being on camera is a lot of Zoom calls, lot giving me the elevator pitch on like what I do. But yeah, I’ve done a few interviews like when I was nominated for the Juno that I did at CBC, but that was off camera. I think like honestly, I’m better when I’m off camera. Like I get very…

Glen Erickson (02:18)

So Zoom calls all the time? Is it all?

Yeah, okay.

Becca (02:41)

I think that’s the thing about visual

Glen Erickson (02:41)

You know what though?

Becca (02:43)

artists, we like to be like behind the scenes.

Glen Erickson (02:46)

Well, that’s very

true, but you’d be surprised how many like artist artists like in the music business. Maybe you aren’t surprised if you’ve met something. They’re pretty similar. They don’t love. They don’t love this either. at all, but.

Becca (02:54)

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, no, a lot

of the musicians I worked for, I also worked a lot with comedians, like I was a talent manager for a minute. And like, yeah, I worked for Just For Laughs as like a production person and like working behind the scenes and like work at the festival and then a little bit for the company full time.

Glen Erickson (03:06)

Okay.

Becca (03:15)

and working with comedians who very much you think are just like them on stage. It’s just like, it’s a persona and they use that to kind of like, yeah, but when it’s just them, like lot of them are really introverted or want their space. So I do get that. It’s not just limited to visual arts.

Glen Erickson (03:29)

Yeah, they put it on, right? They

turn it on and then you get to see them when it shuts off. it’s a very different, sometimes shocking experience, sometimes not terribly different maybe, but yeah, all kinds. So you said you’re looking for some work right now. So what’s the very quick Becca and Farland pitch then of like, this is what I do.

Becca (03:37)

Yeah, very much that.

Yeah.

Glen Erickson (03:54)

Or this is what I do best or however you try to like literally elevator it.

Becca (03:58)

So it’s hard

because I’m usually doing interviews with more corporate types. So I use buzzwords like branding and direction and strategy at the intersection of design, culture, and brand.

Glen Erickson (04:15)

Mm. Yeah, yeah.

Becca (04:15)

And that’s it, because I do

have a really varied background. I still work with musicians. I worked full time with musicians for a really long time. I’ve transitioned into lifestyle, kind of like beauty brands as well.

Yeah, like having that, like, and trying to, because so many people are really like, if you don’t have this exact experience, have you never worked on a car campaign before? Then like, you don’t know what you’re doing. And it’s just like, as creatives, like, we under, I think most creatives who are worth their salt can like look at a brief and understand the problem you’re trying to solve, regardless of vertical. So a lot of my elevator pitches kind of being like,

Glen Erickson (04:44)

Yeah.

Or that

the core of being a good designer is being able to look at a brief and extract contextually how it applies, even if you don’t know all these different industries of verticals, right? Like your skill is actually being able to walk into an area you don’t know and figure it out and put two and two together. know, anyhow, that’s…

Becca (05:12)

Yeah.

Yeah, and figuring out the vibe.

And I think that actually like going to like musicians and like working in the music industry, either

that is a skill that is really underrated because a lot of times, like, I mean, a lot of the times when I’ve worked with, you know, with musicians, I knew who they were. A lot of the times I didn’t. like, so, and maybe it’s like their debut album. So it’s not even the kind of huge catalog to look back on. But I do have the opportunity to, I need to hone the skill to be able to like look at what they do and like look at who they are and be able to.

Glen Erickson (05:37)

Mm.

Becca (05:52)

create strong creative for them in that sense. yeah, and so that’s usually the elevator pitch.

Glen Erickson (05:54)

Yeah.

Yeah,

I, well, I love that. Okay, so we’re talking today because obviously my podcast premise is about chasing the dream. It’s sort of about taking the step back and looking as much macro at all of the at the compiling of the layers of what it means when somebody pursues a dream.

creatively, artistically around the music industry in particular. But there’s so many layers inside of that. And one of the layers I haven’t discussed with anybody, although I’ve got some people who are kind of have moved full time into like either video and art production type stuff. I did talk with one guy who’s an artist and also has been doing a lot of touring as

like following bands along as their photographer, which is very interesting. yeah, you having a career as, you know, in its little core, we could say graphic designer, which obviously then evolves to be both and of a lot of different things as you build a career, both out of necessity and also probably out of desire. So.

Becca (06:47)

Right.

Glen Erickson (07:10)

How that applies in the music business and working with this, just have, I mean, I’ve done a lot of this in my life. It was half of my gateway into this as well, right? Is that I started meeting bands and I didn’t get my first design job. Well, so when I wanted to get my first job with an actual agency, all I had was they were like, bring a portfolio to lunch. And I just had a folder.

of posters and merchandise and album covers, because I had just been doing things for bands for like seven years and they had a good chuckle about it. In fact, I would see them 20 years later and they still have a laugh about it. Remember your portfolio? Like air quotes. And I didn’t realize at the time how embarrassed maybe I should have been. But that was my gateway into a lot of things too, is you just start producing stuff and it’s a great way to produce stuff. so your work in this has been

very good, obviously you’ve gotten some notoriety and some reward out of it, but also been able to make it a big part of your career as you indicated earlier, it’s not like the sole thing you do. But I wanna talk about your experience with it around the music scene, around artists and stuff, if that’s okay. But let’s go back to you kind of getting started in this, because some of the questions I would have that I think maybe other people would have is about…

How does that even happen? How do you get connected? How do things start? But you referenced Just For Laughs and working with comedians and doing that booking thing. So you are in Montreal. Just For Laughs is out of Montreal. So I’m wondering like, when did you make the jump there? Was the jump there related to, you know, just Montreal being a place where you felt you wanted to be able to pursue a more creative?

Becca (08:34)

Mm.

Glen Erickson (08:52)

I’m also working off an assumption that you maybe were Emetan Basin’s full disclosure here. I’m meeting Becca because I work with Becca’s sister, Ellie, day job wise. Nepo baby, route in here. Ellie is incredible and one of the most dynamic personalities I’ve ever met. And she talks so highly about your design work all the time and your…

Becca (09:04)

I’m a nipple baby.

Glen Erickson (09:20)

experiences. I made some assumptions that you were started here and maybe jumped there. So maybe you could take me back to like you getting started and making that move.

Becca (09:30)

Yeah,

first, just before, and you don’t have keep this in, but what an accurate and lovely way to describe my older sister. She is one of the most dynamic personalities and I don’t think she, like, I think she would love to hear that.

Yeah, so I’m Edmonton raised. I don’t say born and raised. like, you know, we moved out there when I was like six, like a year old type of thing. So just barely technicality, not born and raised, but I consider myself Edmonton born and raised. I went out to Concordia University for art school at 17 and letting a 17 year old loose in the city of Montreal is a choice. And so I…

Glen Erickson (09:57)

Awesome.

Becca (10:09)

did my art school thing there. I studied studio art. I did like the fine artists thing. Ellie could tell you a lot of stories of where my family of just like me coming back from like winter break and just be like.

talking about the performance art I would do and just like artist capital A type of thing. And then once I graduated, I decided to stay out of Montreal mostly as a financial decision because at the time Montreal was a really affordable city to live in. If I moved back to Edmonton, I would have had to move back with my parents. They’re lovely, like have a great relationship with them, but I definitely would have been not able to move out of like the family home for a pretty long time, whereas I was paying like, I think like $4.50 a month in rent

Glen Erickson (10:34)

Mmm.

Becca (10:49)

roommates so I could waitress and do free jobs and just kind of be scrappy with it. And so it was truly a financial decision for me to stay out in Montreal. Also there’s a great art scene too and I had made some connections through my time in university and through my friends so it just kind of seemed like the right choice at the time. So was the ripe old age of 21 trying to make it out on my own.

Glen Erickson (10:52)

Wow.

Becca (11:15)

As much as I was happy to get started with things young, think I just, you know, the panic set in of trying to find work. And so I was doing the waitressing, bartending thing, taking some contract jobs here and there. I know I was always really interested in working in the music industry. I’m not, I’m very tone deaf. Like I knew that being a musician was never in the cards for me and also studying visuals. So I think that was the goal.

Glen Erickson (11:31)

Mm-hmm.

literal,

literal tone deaf, not metaphorical tone deaf.

Becca (11:45)

No, not metaphorical. Like honestly, I don’t know if you’ve heard like

any like you ever heard Ellie sing like we’re flat as like the prairies like yeah, no, it’s it’s devastating but we actually find a lot of humor in it. We’ll like I forced my friends who I have a lot of friends who are actually musicians and like

Glen Erickson (11:51)

No, I haven’t.

Becca (12:01)

actors and actresses who do like musicals so they have huge vocal range and I made them all come to karaoke for my like 35th birthday and to like force them to listen to me sing.

Glen Erickson (12:17)

a real test of friendship.

Becca (12:18)

Yeah, and then

Glen Erickson (12:19)

It’s great.

Becca (12:20)

through those friends like in the theater and everything, I got my first gig working events through the Fringe Festival here in Montreal. So I was like booking shows for the outdoor space and like, you know, just promoting different events with them. And then the Fringe Festival and Just For Last has a really close relationship. So over the years, I kind of worked more in like production, like live show production. So I worked for the Just For Last Festival, doing talent management, venue coordination, running a venue for a lot of

years working backstage and then eventually I started I got a job with them full-time and I started work with like their touring department and it was a huge learning experience and it was really great and it was like a good career path I was setting myself on and I was about 25 at the time and I realized I wasn’t really drawing as much as I used to I wasn’t creating and I was like really facilitating other people’s art and

Glen Erickson (13:08)

Hmm.

Becca (13:10)

I did kind of have like a bit of a quarter life crisis, I guess you would call it, where I was just like, do I want to, I’m happy with like, I do love supporting people and facilitating their artwork. But I don’t think I’m done making mine. So I decided at that point to go back to what’s called here in Quebec, a Sajep. So it’s like a college that’s usually done. So in Quebec, when if you’re in high school in Quebec,

you finish your high school when we would consider grade 11.

and then you go into Sasia typically, which is considered like your last year of high school and your first year of university. I think it’s a really great program, but it’s like college, you declare major the same way. And then if you decide to go into a four-year university program, it knocks a year off. So you only do three years. But I think it kind of like helps a lot of young people figure out they’re like, maybe I don’t want to do psychology or maybe I don’t want to do fine arts. Yeah. And then they do have these programs are. Yeah.

Glen Erickson (13:47)

Hmm.

That’s really cool. I’ve heard of that in European. Yeah, European

countries. I’ve heard of that, same thing. Man, I didn’t even know that existed there. That’s really great.

Becca (14:10)

Yes,

yeah so they have those here in Quebec and they have one at Dawson and they’re so those are the two-year programs they have three-year programs that are meant for people to go straight into the workforce so it’s called a DEC and I decided and they had an illustration and design program.

And because my focus in like studio arts was a lot based on like my drawing skills, I really wanted to focus in on illustration. So I decided at like 25, 26, almost nearly 26 to go back with a bunch of 17, 18 year olds into this program and like learn the technique because I knew how to like fake my way through Photoshop and know, Illustrator, but not enough that really truly can get me employed. So I did that program for two out of the three years.

I dropped out of the program because I got the gig that led me to my music career. So at this place called the Carboard Box Project, they’re a music merchandising company based out of Montreal. Super small team, like super small when I joined, they’ve grown a bit, which is good to hear, but it’s like very much family run. They’re the most wonderful people in the world, but…

I had applied to them, they had seen my portfolio, and then I also had some connections through working with Just For Laughs and working with musicians in the past, doing the same thing as you, making the posters, making t-shirts just to produce. And they took me on full time. And yeah, it was the biggest break and one of the pretty informative moves in my career.

Glen Erickson (15:33)

Mm-hmm.

Hmm. So there’s a whole bunch of things in there that are really cool. So I’m going to try, it’s becoming the running joke on here. I’m going to try to wrestle my ADHD down and be able to get to one without forgetting the other. so I think one thing that’s really interesting to note in there that I see happen a lot and it happened with me. So you talked about

you know, basically between that 21 to 25 or whatever, when, you know, you’re getting on with these festivals and these organizations and you’re starting to obviously flex the muscle that you must have where you actually can be organized and you sort of understand how the bigger picture of things works, right? And so you, you have to have a lot of hustle and quite a bit of energy, live in chaos for a while, be comfortable with it. Also be able to like facilitate the spreadsheet in the chaos.

Like that’s a unique sort of hybrid personality, I think. And it’s interesting to me when I meet creatives who share quite a bit of right and left brain skill, right? Cause a lot of people sometimes lean heavier one way or the other. In the website design world, that’s basically, that’s the unicorn formula, right? Is that it’s very much, you know, in a siloed environment, you’re, you’re flexing both muscles all the time. So.

Becca (16:54)

Yeah.

Glen Erickson (17:07)

Is that how you would, is that, am I profiling you a little bit or am I like over profiling by making some assumptions?

Becca (17:14)

Now I think you’re right on there. I’ve been

described as a type A creative. And also I wrestle with some of the same attention issues that you do as well without getting into it too much.

But so I’ve depended on systems a lot because like I dropped the ball. I had like a lot of issues with like organizations. So like I really leaned hard into yeah, learning from mistakes. Like I always say that like I prepare like people who know me know me as someone who’s like so prepared and so on top of things and really organized. And I say it’s like it’s because I’ve like made every mistake in the book. Like honestly, like I have I have had the worst case scenario happen to me so

Glen Erickson (17:30)

Yeah.

Yeah, me too.

Becca (17:55)

different times that like the anxiety just over prepares and yeah like production and live shows is definitely something that like yeah it’s like a perfect perfect playground for someone with that mind because you just have to be like able to pivot able to think on your feet think non-linearly and be able to like find solutions and then I know I don’t know much about the web design world but I also know that actually it does apply still a lot in what I do with creative direction because you still have to like

Glen Erickson (17:59)

Yeah.

Becca (18:23)

attack and like, you know, thinking about the identity and the visual language of a client or of a project. Cause you kind of have to attack it from all these different sides and think about how is this like, how is this logo? How is this color scheme? How are these illustrations going to apply here? What if they did like something in retail? What if like, you know, we go on tour, how is that going to look?

And even like printing t-shirts, like the silkscreen process, you pay by the color. I’m sure you know this. Like, so many artists have come to me and they’re like, I have this amazing idea. like, this is 15 colors and you have like, you have an EP, like you do not have the money for this. Like, I’m just like, we need to think strategically and think like…

Glen Erickson (18:51)

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, you’ll never afford this. Yeah.

Becca (19:06)

and have that like real like critical brain for like how do we do smart design so that like we can get yeah

Glen Erickson (19:12)

Well, that’s that word right there, strategic, right? I

think, I think when, in my experience, when I’ve met a type A creative, they’re fooling everybody about being type A, more than creative sometimes, or, or people just make this perception and quick interpretation about them. I didn’t figure all this out until this stage of life, right? So I went through that whole lifespan and another decade and a half or more.

of like full on imposter syndrome the entire time as a result, right? Because I’m fooling people. I’m leaning on these systems. I’m trying to figure out patterns because I’m good at seeing patterns. It’s part of ADHD, but I’m definitely not good at adhering to them. I prefer to rebel against them. So I’ve had to lean into that and fool people and be on boards and be the chairman of boards and appear or get any like, so undoing those narratives.

especially as a creative person has been interesting over the last year and a half of my life. Cause the concept of imposter syndrome is relatable to everybody, but there’s a real beaten bones version of it. think to ADHD creatives, which is how much energy we like produce or go through just trying to stay afloat and just trying to

Becca (20:31)

Yeah.

Glen Erickson (20:33)

appear like trustworthy and confident in what we’re doing because we feel like the shoe is going to drop at any minute and we’re going to and someone’s going to figure things out or the next especially when we’re in an industry where you’re only as good as the next thing that you produce I don’t know if that’s relatable for you in your work

Becca (20:52)

Yeah,

I call it, well, I don’t know if I call it, but it’s something I think about when I think about swans. Like swans look like they’re gliding on the water, underneath the way that they are, because they’re so big, they actually shouldn’t float on water. They have to produce, they have to be kicking their legs like crazy and producing so much energy to keep them on water.

Glen Erickson (21:05)

Yeah.

Becca (21:12)

and floating along, like I relate to a swan. I think like from what people who have told, and like, I am trying to battle, think, yeah, like I just said, that imposter syndrome always exists.

Glen Erickson (21:16)

That’s a great one. That’s great.

Becca (21:26)

And I’m trying to take on board that I’m just like, I’m not an imposter and you know, that I like, and I’m really happy that I have like, I’m lucky that I have like such a great group around me that like, and you know, I get to look back and so far my career thus far that I’m just like, no, I did do this work. I did achieve these things. So I don’t know necessarily if I’m gliding like a swan, but I’m definitely floating and there’s like a lot of chaos underneath the surface.

Glen Erickson (21:35)

Hmm.

Yeah, I get it.

I get it. I love that. Let’s pinpoint the other part of that particular time of life that I was thinking is very relatable in the arts, particularly, not just the music scene. I think the art scene is that usually these organizations live and die on people like

you and the way you described yourself in that time and life of they will chew up the people with hustle and spit them up. Like not in an nefarious way. I don’t think they’re trying to do it on purpose, but I’ve worked on a lot of different sides of arts organizations over my life. And, and I find that there is this aspect of people who have that tend to get drawn into it and they’re rewarded. We’re given a lot of validation for the efforts that we

produce, but they will, it’s like they only exist because they know how to draw in those kinds of people who can put in 180 % effort all the time because they don’t have the money to pay. It’s often a lot of volunteer, it’s charitable nonprofit based quite often. and so I’ve found that pretty common. then

You describing your experiences, like I realized I wasn’t creating, was expending so much effort for other people’s creative efforts is a crossroads that like I’ve like, that’s kind of story of my life too, right? Which is I started a record label because I was doing all these things for my friends. And then I woke up one morning and I’m like, this is what a record label does. Like they don’t know how to do booking tours or getting their CD produced or even know where to mail it off to or getting it.

set up properly and all like every aspect I just woke up and I’m like I should just start doing this for everyone I know in a band and just call it a record label and I started spending a ton of time and I have my entire life like doing so much work because that’s I wanted to be as adjacent to the music business as possible because I loved it right like this is where my love was

but it very easily took me away from doing it myself, which was a big challenge. So I wanted you to just talk a little more about what that point of wrestling with that was like and how you felt about what your options were and how hard it was to maybe push yourself off of it.

Becca (24:11)

Yeah, I mean, it was my dream. And like, I really wanted to like get full time working for Jesper Labs and like, yeah, to your point of like, you know, these industries, like using people and like churning and burning them out, like that wasn’t necessarily exactly what happened to me. But I know, I know that’s a very real, like, narrative that exists.

I think I just realized that I kind of achieved that goal and I was looking around at me and like, right, I’m in my mid-20s, what’s the next step in my career now? I’ve worked so hard for this thing, what’s my next step? And then I’m just like, am I really excited for this? Maybe I think I can do this for the next 30 years, or no, sorry, until in my 30s, but do I wanna be doing this in my 50s? And I know that not every job, and this is something I’ve come to learn,

Glen Erickson (24:46)

Hmm.

Becca (25:04)

I did grow up with the sense that I’m like, have a career and you do that career and it’s the same career for the rest of your life. I don’t necessarily subscribe to that belief anymore. But I think it was helpful in me for that way to figure out them. Just like, I don’t know if I want to be like negotiating intermission fees with venues at 50 years old. I’m like, I don’t like, I think it’s really fun. like, and I miss.

Glen Erickson (25:09)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Becca (25:28)

I miss the, yeah, the rush I get from creating and from producing my own work. So I, it was, I think it was kind of a foolish bit of myself. I’m happy I made that. Like I had like zero money in savings and I’m just like, I’m going into a full-time program where, and then I started, I took a job at a kitchen, working as a prep cook. They allowed me to like work from like 7 a.m. to like 11 a.m. most mornings and my classes would usually start around that time. And then I classes from like 11 till six.

Glen Erickson (25:50)

You

Becca (25:59)

And or if I finished early, I’d come back in and finish my prep work. Like they’re very chill with me just like kind of like making my own schedule and like and it was very weird that like a year before I had like an office in like for a really well respected like company and then I was like in a basement in St. Henry making like tuna sandwich mix like, you know, for for lunch and everything. But so and it’s

Glen Erickson (26:26)

Mm-hmm.

Becca (26:28)

obviously a decision I don’t regret, but I know it’s a hard decision to make. It’s also something to your point about like starting the record company. It’s something that like obviously I’ve thought about even like where I’m at right now in a flux in my career where I’m just like.

I could do all these things. Like I can like start my own business or I can do all these things. And it’s something I’ve learned earlier on that I’m just like, just cause I’m good at something doesn’t mean it’s necessarily what I should be doing. And then it sounds, and sometimes I wish, and maybe I need that like lane to stay in so I can stay focused on what I want to do. But like I worked at an art gallery in like St. Albert, like just outside of Edmonton when I was in between.

Glen Erickson (26:56)

Great point.

Becca (27:13)

in between like semesters at university and I taught children’s art classes there and there was definitely a thought I think for my family that’s just like, going to art education, like you’re so good, like kind of showing people and mentoring people on like doing the ropes. I’m just like, I know I would hate this. And like, just cause I’m good at it doesn’t mean I need to do this. And it’s something that I’m still holding true. Like,

And it does mean that sometimes life and work and professional careers can get really difficult if you’re just holding the line of being like, no, this is what I want to do and I want to push for this. It means that you have to make a lot of sacrifices and you have lot of difficult days.

Glen Erickson (27:55)

And you have to start believing your own voice because if the people you trust around you and love you are telling you, you’re really good at this, we like live for validation, right? And that’s reliable validation. And I think it gets hard to start to choose when you feel like…

yeah, this is the way the universe works, right? Like if these people are saying this and opportunities present themselves, then I’m supposed to do that. And maybe that internal narrative is like, maybe I shouldn’t trust, you know, the thing that I want or trust my gut, but trusting your gut is such a huge part of life and taking those big swings or those risks. So it’s very, very, very relatable for me.

Becca (28:32)

Yeah, for sure.

Glen Erickson (28:38)

Okay, so you end up landing a job that is working with music, artists, bands, merch primarily, I presume.

Becca (28:42)

Yeah, so.

Yeah, so the CBP Carbure box project, do like design, design production, they run the online stores for a lot of artists. They also like do like tour management for like their merch sales and everything. It’s really turnkey. They’re great guys. And actually you mentioned you had a guest on before who

follows bands, like certain bands around and takes photos. So it was founded by two guys, Jonathan and Aaron. Aaron is the one that kind of works, I worked with him on the creative stuff. He started, how this company started was that same way. He was a photographer and he started like going on the road with bands and taking photos of them and then eventually they need t-shirts done and he’s like, I can do that. So that’s kind of the roots of this company. So he was like,

Glen Erickson (29:10)

Yep.

Becca (29:33)

back in the day working with like Stars and Arcade Fire and all like the offshoots like Broken Social Scene and all the offshoots of like that early in all the offshoots of the indie scene in Canadian indie scene. like literally when I got a call from them and I saw their roster, was just like, so this is like literally what I would listen. These are all the bands that I would listen to in high school when I was dreaming of yeah, when I was dreaming of making artwork for bands, I was listening to Feist and to Broken Social Scene and Tegan and Sarah

Glen Erickson (29:40)

All the offshoots, yeah.

my God.

The golden era. Yeah, that was like golden era.

Becca (30:03)

and all these people that they represented. So of course I was just like, yeah, I’m not returning back to Sejab. Look, I’m taking this job. Tell me you jump and I’ll say how high.

Again, to your point, there’s a lot of people and companies that take that passion that lot of young creators have and really burn out. They use that love for the game as a means to take advantage of them, pay them less and everything. I honestly have nothing but amazing things to say about them. They were so good and treated me so well and really took an interest in… I started more on the production side. It was just me and one other designer.

And I was doing less creative stuff and more helping out with production, like prepping things, like getting the artwork and like prepping it for silk screening or like looking at it and auditing the artwork or doing some edits or, you know, maybe some small design stuff here and there. But Aaron, anytime that he had a chance, he would throw me more creative projects. And eventually I just kind of became the main designer. And, you know, worked with some, we brought some like another junior on and they also have like art directors that they would

work with. But then I eventually started to do like, you full collections for different artists. And it was a dream. And it broke my heart when I had when I felt like I had to leave. But it was more of just, again, a thing of me looking in the future of realizing that as much as I want to stay close to music, and like that is my, like my love.

Glen Erickson (31:21)

Mm.

Becca (31:34)

I can’t limit my opportunities as a creative based on just the industry. And so I had an opportunity to kind of like explore more art direction and like run my own team and do a bit more freelance work. And so I took that and they were nothing but supportive. And I still like, you know, I still see them and have a drink with them.

Glen Erickson (31:49)

Mmm.

That’s pretty great. Yeah, I totally, yeah, I’m relating on just about everything you’re saying. So this is a fun conversation for me. I mean, the job I’m at right now working with your sister, the background I have is like, I actually like her boss, Micah, I was actually employee number three back in.

the mid 2000s when that was just starting and growing. And then I left and I freelanced for 12 years so I could travel around and be in a band. And my choice to come back was when I was getting towards my later 40s and saying, do I want to be the guy behind the computer?

you know, hustling for just individual jobs, making all this stuff, or do I want to apply everything I learned and maybe go back and work and run a team and do these things you’re talking about? You don’t want to be limited. So very relatable. OK, so let’s let’s talk about. Let’s talk about design in the music business a little bit then, Becca, which is like, I think a real fun conversation. So I know that you’ve worked with a bunch and there’s

Becca (32:53)

Yeah.

Glen Erickson (33:00)

ones that you can talk more freely about than others. So you can feel free to steer me away from anything. I mean, some of it’s just out there on your portfolio. So you’re not hiding, you know, the chance that you’ve had to do some work. mean, I think that there’s, you can tell me some other areas, but like, I think a lot of way people often get starting to work in music is either, like we already addressed, like photographers, there’s always a need and a demand.

artists and for their photos and to have a lot of creativity as well as skill applied in it is what people are looking for. But when it comes to design there’s the immediate thing which is merch is the first thing usually any band from grassroots all the way up you know continues to be like a massive seller you know side note to that I don’t know if you’ve ever walked by a merch table at a huge stadium show that you had to pay

$200 for the ticket and realized that the designer probably put the same amount of effort and inspiration into it as the ones you see at the $25 show at the 200 cap club. Do you know what I mean? It’s like really no difference. It’s just they’re selling those t-shirts for $110 at the stadium show and they’re $30. Yeah, they all take a cut of that. That’s why.

Becca (34:10)

Yeah.

Yeah, well the stadiums do take a cut, the venues do take a cut of that. I it’s like

a 25 to 30 percent. It’s insane how much they take. if it’s the bigger the venue, the more the merch will cost not on the backs of the artists. They’re not getting that money.

Glen Erickson (34:28)

It’s crazy.

Yeah. And that’s, think, where a lot of people don’t understand. So you got into merch, but the other area, if people love it, some people get inspired when they’re young by album design. That sort of has, whether we talk about that or not, has sort of become challenged in the Spotify universe. Now the physical packaging isn’t as prominent in the delivery of

the actual music as it used to be. mean, there’s aspects that have been revived, thankfully, over the last 68 years. But when that used to be everything, right? Like it used to be, I mean, I had somebody on, I had this guy Tyson on, he is the guy who runs what is Starlight Room right now, used to be the Rev and all those Bronx and all these, among other things. But he talked about how when he was younger in small town Alberta,

and try to find a band that wasn’t on a big label. Like he would have to search all over and he would have to go and visit the record stores just hoping the physical product showed up on the shelf at some point, you know, like, so a lot has changed in the universe. anyhow, album design has been sort of a very, you know, golden calf of the, of the design world in music and often is what gets recognition still at the big awards like

They’re not usually, there’s not a Juno for merch. I mean, it’s kind of like maybe the entire rollout for an album, I think, you know, and all the components, right?

Becca (36:03)

Yeah, so the Juneau

I was nominated for with my art director was Album Artwork of the Year, which I think is the only visual design. Yeah, one.

Glen Erickson (36:14)

Yeah.

And so that was for Tegan and Sarah. And so you’ve worked with other like pretty well-known ones. Like you’ve done merch work for Arcade Fire. One of my favorites, Sharon Van Hinton. Current Pretty Boy. Yeah, I know. I’m such a stan for Sharon Van Hinton. Joe.

Becca (36:17)

Yeah.

Glen Erickson (36:37)

who is Joe Keery and stuff, which, know, this will now I just tapped into the younger kid demographic right now by being able to drop that name in there among a bunch of others. So. Your ability to work with like touring professional full time acts that generally only comes if you work through either an agency or there’s some very I’ll call them for lack of a better term, elite artists who.

Becca (36:38)

Yeah, Joe, yeah.

Glen Erickson (37:04)

have sort of been able to sustain their own individual freelance career and develop a reputation that people come to them for, right?

So for you getting with an agency that had a roster of clients, as you sort of described it, like, you know, in a golden era of Canadian indie music where a lot was being produced physically still, right? Not just digitally. What was the thing, well, actually a different question I wanna ask.

Is it completely like arm’s length? How much interaction do you ever end up having with artists and their personal goals and tastes as the client or is the client always the record label or the agent or the PR publicist or, or yeah, how does that typically play out?

Becca (37:58)

Yeah, so it varies. So during my time with Carport Box Project, because it was built on a lot of personal relationships, a lot of times it was like, I’d work usually through Aaron, like the one of the founders, like he was close with a lot of the musicians and they would like call and be like, I’m working on an album, I want to talk to you about this.

And maybe sometimes it would be through their management. we’d just like, yeah, there would be a little bit, maybe like two degrees of separation between me and the artist. Sometimes it was a lot closer. For some of my projects, I’ve gone on the phone with the artist where I’m just like, okay, let’s talk about this. So.

And there’s been other times, like for instance, like Tegan and Sarah, like I worked with Emmy Story, who has been Tegan and Sarah’s art director for a lot of years. I actually don’t know. She took a break and stepped back from it. And then she called me to come and work with her on the Cry Baby album. That was actually after I left. CBP was shortly after I left.

But she was just like, I’m back working with Teagan and Sarah. I’m working on a new album. Could you, she described it, come play with me. And that’s what we did to the album, album artwork. So that was through Emmy as that degree of separation.

So yeah, think a lot of people when they see my, they’re just like, you must be just like hanging with the artists. I’m just like, no, a lot of people probably actually don’t know that I worked on their stuff. mean, Arcade Fire, I did the suburbs capsule collection for like their 10 year anniversary. I worked with their art director Renata Morales. And so I was getting like direct notes from her. So a lot of times as the designer, I’m working more with an art director and that’s a traditional agency set up anyway. Sometimes, yeah, I’ve had like a lot more closer contact

like the Joe hoodie actually was one of the ones I was working.

Mostly through Aaron, like at CBP, like he was giving me a lot of like, here’s some inspiration that Joe has, like, can we just try? And we had like a lot of different options. And then eventually I just got on the phone with Joe and I was just like, okay, like, did you like this one? And then I think when we were developing like the typeface, it was just like a quick call, but I was just like, we decided on something funkier with the typeface. And then so I made the typeface and that one was really fun because I was, that was during like COVID, like everything shut down. So I was working remote and then

Glen Erickson (40:14)

Mm.

Becca (40:16)

there’s a hand in that that hoodie design and because I couldn’t get into a studio to take a photo of a hand that’s actually my husband’s hand that I took with my iPhone and put in there and then it’s like been like like that particular design has been like reproduced on Redbubble like a thousand times over.

My husband’s pretty freaked out that it’s like a photo of his hand. We call it the fancy hand, like the way you posed it exists in like so many iterations on the internet. yeah, it varies. It varies on how close you get. And like, as much as like I also have like these big names, you know, like for people who look at my portfolio.

Glen Erickson (40:38)

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

Yeah.

Becca (40:55)

I also do work directly with a lot of more grassroots bands and help out. I have lot of friends who are artists and I work on their stuff all the time and get to collaborate with them and that stuff is really rewarding.

Glen Erickson (41:09)

Yeah,

okay. Let me, okay, I got like so many different little questions. I just might rapid fire them a little bit. So for example, are artists, even though it’s they’re passing this information through, you know, an art director, you know,

I don’t want to get into making the assumption to whether how much the art director is just following their own choices versus like always how much they consult the band on every creative little detail. But in general, with the assumption that maybe you’re working from one or two degrees of separation from the artist himself, how different is trying to nail it, air quotes, how different is the experience of trying to get to the end goal?

with an artist in this sort of work versus sort of typical business, small business, corporate client.

Becca (42:04)

and

I think it’s easier to work with musicians and artists because I mean, I know we talk like I guess like in an agency world, a traditional corporate agency world, you hear the word art director, you’re just like another layer of the corporate ladder in between the designer and the client. Whereas like, I think that something’s really beautiful they see with a lot of musicians who take on art directors and creative directors. It really helps hone their image and it helps like is it helps them develop the tapestry, the language of

Glen Erickson (42:20)

Yep.

Becca (42:33)

the music. And I think that honestly, it’s a lot easier because any art director I’ve ever worked with that’s been attached to an artist.

Glen Erickson (42:35)

Hmm.

Becca (42:43)

It’s a it’s a they truly understand like they really have an intimate understanding of the artist so it’s really easy to Be able to pull ideas for them because they’re just like, you know Like they had like a really clear idea. Whereas a lot of times when I’m dealing with like more corporate or non-artist clients, they’re just like

We know what we don’t like, which is like the worst thing you could say to I think creative or like as someone who’s creating for you. It’s just like, I know what I don’t like, I’ll know when I see it. just like, whereas I think because I mean, as musicians, as much as like I have my struggle story and like, you know, trying to figure it out and trying to like find my way into a creative career.

Glen Erickson (43:09)

Yeah.

Becca (43:24)

These musicians have been thinking so much about who they are and what they want to produce. I know this is something I talk about a lot with creativity is just like, you have to know yourself so well. And it’s a lot of internal work and the ones who truly do that work and figure it out like.

they can answer, like when I give them like a few mood boards, like they can answer right away. They’re just like, no, not that or yes, that, because they know themselves and they know it. At least the ones that like are truly like, I would say fully fleshed. And that’s not a criticism for those who maybe are still figuring it out. That’s totally valid as well. But I feel like, yeah, if the artist has a creative director or an art director that I’m working with, it’s because like they’re an intimate part of their team.

Glen Erickson (43:46)

Hmm.

Yeah. And I think it’s fair to say that a lot of artists, cause everybody’s different, some really care deeply about all of that. And some give very few shits about being in control and have, you know what I mean? They just want to make the music. It’s just one more part of the business to some artists. Not a lot. would say most artists care a lot about their brand, so to speak. And

Well, no, they’re a literal brand. And it is advice I used to give. I worked in lot of development programs. the advice I’d give, because grassroots artists with no budgets, I said, just find somebody that you think understands you and stay with them. I basically tell them to turn a regular designer into their art director by staying with them so that that person learns who they are over time. if you…

It’s like how you choose a therapist, right? Like just don’t pick anybody, pick somebody you really click with and feel understands you.

Becca (45:03)

Yeah, I think the most people that come to like kind of like their brief makes it to my desk are people who do care a lot only because they’re going outside of like the label system. Like recently, especially since COVID when like everyone knows touring but merch sales really blew up. A lot of labels started to create their own in-house agencies. So a lot of like smaller outfits lost a lot of business with that.

Glen Erickson (45:16)

Yeah, yeah.

Becca (45:30)

And so, you know, and like, again, like no shade, but there’s a lot of artists that like, you know, just go turnkey. And honestly, maybe it’s not even like their decision. Sometimes it’s just like, if you just sign with a major label and they’re telling you you’re using this agency, you just sign with a major label, you’re not going to push back on that. So, and then you see what you were referring to these big stadium shows charging $200 for like a fanatic type design, where it’s just like, you know, like it’s not necessarily.

Glen Erickson (45:46)

Yeah.

Becca (45:59)

anything super inspired or super aligned to the musician, the ethos of the musician and maybe their actual brand or maybe it’s the brand that the record label developed for them. So if they’re making it their way to me, they’ve usually already either like pushed against the system or made it clear that it’s a priority for them to figure out their own way.

And yeah, I agree with that advice. think that finding your creative team, even if you find yourself, know visuals and you know this, I think it’s good to just have your people and figure that out. I also think that a mistake a lot of people make is that they reach out to creative directors or artists because of their style.

or because of their point of view and not necessarily realizing that there’s a lot of creative directors and art directors and designers out there who are so good at adapting and working, like kind of being that empath, like taking in the point of view of the artist and being able to output work. So just because maybe someone doesn’t necessarily have a portfolio that is like the style aligns directly with my POV as a musician.

Glen Erickson (46:53)

Yeah.

Becca (47:04)

that’s not necessarily means that they’re not the right creative director or art director for you. But I think that most people like, yeah, if you look at a lot of like the big pop stars now, or people who are like kind of like they really do hone in on like that visual presence, because even though like the record label, they’re like record label, like the record shopping culture is very different now with streaming.

there is still very much a visual identity that is very important to a lot of musicians and you really shouldn’t discount that. And being able to find your person is super important.

Glen Erickson (47:38)

Yeah. Okay. Let me ask you one of the big questions here real quick. How does an artist, how should an artist though should is a bit loaded, build a brand? Cause it’s different than a company. I the thing I hated the most is I worked with these development programs and they would all be given like $5,000 at the start to use however they needed for their career. And they kind of got judged though on how they used it. And I would see artists come back and they had spent half of it.

2,500 on somebody making them a logo. Just a logo, not even a whole visual identity guide, the whole thing, just something that they could print and stick on the front of the drum kit or on there, you know what I mean? Anyhow, like I thought it was like, why, how does the logo mean so much for a band? I didn’t personally believe in it, but there’s a bigger conversation around what…

a band or an artist’s brand is and all the sort of layered ways you build that. So I’m wondering, in your opinion, how does a band effectively build brand?

Becca (48:41)

Yeah, that’s a big one. Honestly, this might shoot me in the foot for potential job opportunities, but logos are the last thing I think of when I think of branding. I don’t come from a graphic design background where I’ve maybe made two logos in my life. I don’t know, so if you ask me to talk about a band’s logo, I can’t bring a bunch to mind.

Glen Erickson (48:46)

no.

Exactly.

Becca (49:04)

I think in the way that you approach branding, know this is also like, a lot of people are held under the gun. A brand develops, you know, it’s a living, breathing thing. You do need that north star though. So like, think whatever made you, and that’s tied to your music and that’s tied to who you are as an artist and understanding yourself.

Glen Erickson (49:25)

Mm-hmm.

Becca (49:26)

Through every album, through every campaign, and through every like iteration of you, it should always ladder up to like that one.

singular nor star of who you are as an artist. So even if it’s like isolating like three words on how you describe yourself and working back from that and realizing that like I think a lot of people when they think about branding because I think like the TikTokification of branding designers of it all is just like this is what a brand guideline looks like here’s exactly like the cute little like mood boards and the cute little like here’s the pattern here’s the inspiration like things here are the colors and people think

Glen Erickson (49:38)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Becca (50:04)

that and they need to develop that for their brand and like I think that could work for like small businesses because you know

Small businesses are mostly stationary and they work in a different world than I think a musician, where a musician is an artist in themselves and they’re living, breathing, and their ecosystem is always evolving. So they need to always understand their ethos as a band or as a musician. And then every single choice should ladder up to that, but understand that it’s not like these neat little boxes that you can just drag and drop images into.

breathing tapestry that you keep on adding to throughout the year. you still need to like start with that like little apex of that tapestry.

Glen Erickson (50:49)

Yeah, that’s a really good point. think because I always had this creative thing growing up and I was inspired mostly in music, but I remember gravitating and learning so much what I understood about design systems and like not the brand guides, but literally just somebody who understood how every version of aesthetic, you know, can be like

intentional, like so is so intentional, right down sometimes to minute details and sometimes bigger things. And how important to me always in this idea of like,

you build expectation for everybody around you about who you are and what they can expect from you by what they see before they even listen, you know, which is so key in particular when we’re talking about music and artists and bands. And some people pay a lot of attention to that, right? That that aligns up. Because I think we’ve maybe all had an experience where we’re like where we see the visuals and then someone starts, then you start playing the music and you’re like, that’s not what I expected at all. And that’s a bit of

Becca (51:53)

Yeah.

Glen Erickson (51:55)

visceral experience and I don’t know that it’s in favor of the artist, maybe sometimes it’s a really great surprise. so for you trying to manage that for like if you said you’ve worked with grassroots people and talking with them, what is some of the typical advice that you give people about how

they sort of start making those decisions to hone in. I mean, you already gave one piece of the best advice, which is like, it’s so important to just know yourself, to be able to even start to make those choices. And I think that maybe…

Becca (52:26)

Yeah.

Glen Erickson (52:31)

what’s being said in between the lines there is like, people have to get really honest with themselves because we’re all like trying to be something, especially like we want to fit into a certain ecosystem and when we’re aspiring, right? Like we hope to belong to this, you know, area of the fabric of the music world someday. And you might.

make dishonest choices from who you really are to belong. So what are some of the advice pieces you’ve had to give to people to kind of steer them towards that?

Becca (53:02)

Yeah, I think that authenticity is really key. I think, like, rightfully so, there’s a lot of anxiety right now, like being a creative, I think there’s always anxiety, but I think definitely in this day and age with like social media and AI and everything, there is a lot of anxiety. And a lot of people are catering towards kind of the algorithms, which I do think will get you some initial.

awareness but it definitely can flatten who you are if it’s not if it’s authentic and it’s hitting the algorithm like it’s like playing into the algorithm great happy for you you won the jackpot but the algorithm can definitely like flatten things it’s risky it’s risky and it’s hard and it’s it’s it’s unrelenting and i’m trying to find a word like you get no thanks it’s a thankless pursuit

Glen Erickson (53:47)

Hmm.

Yeah.

Becca (53:56)

the only thanks you get is that you just know in your heart that what you’re creating is truly yours and it’s truly what you want to be doing because that’s the only reason why we should be doing this because like I mean like man I would

I I was a kid, I wanted to be an artist or a veterinarian. I have cats. I would love to be a veterinarian right now. I’m just like to make that money. But I know that ultimately this is like what I should be doing and it’s what makes my heart sing. And so you need to lean into that. And because yeah, like if you play into those algorithms, you can create awareness. you work in media, you work with agencies, you can generate awareness.

Glen Erickson (54:25)

Yeah.

Becca (54:38)

brand awareness through paid media or like through social media but you can’t but the fandom is real the fandom is real the authenticity is real and people will eventually that’s where the longevity plays in and I think sticking to your guns is is scary it’s but worth it

Glen Erickson (54:53)

Mm. Mm.

Yeah, that’s a great point. Man, I love the way you said that. Because I’ve talked about, I’ve literally discussed on the podcast with a lot of people about how it’s kind of always in a way been in the awareness industry. know, and social media sort of created this ocean to drown in when it came around for that.

and people kind of get lost in it, but it’s very different than what you just articulated, which fandom is real, because the rest of it doesn’t feel real most of the time. And especially the challenge right now, I think of the AI revolution that people should understand is that awareness lives in, okay, we have the conversation about awareness because…

it’s a conversation that’s about marketing and they’re inevitably married together is I want to make music, but I also want to find an audience for my music. And you inevitably end up in marketing the second you try to sell anything that you’ve made. And, and the very top of a marketing funnel is awareness. And it’s the huge piece of that. And

One of the challenges of AI besides the other things we’re talking about that maybe not everybody is aware of yet, but we’re just starting to learn is that AI is just going around scraping the top of the awareness funnel for the information that we’re often seeking, the low-hanging fruit. And so if AI is producing the top of funnel and then researching the top of funnel, you used the term flat flattening. It is definitely a flattening of

truth and reality and authenticity and variety, right? Because it’s literally just being given over to itself to both create and then, you know, extract from itself. definitely a danger. Okay, just very quickly then, let me also ask you, because this is a super hot topic right now, even where I work, the AI and the artists and…

the tools and where the creative lives. I have some ideas, I have you got some articulated ideas? Are you a little unsure of speaking to me like I am sometimes?

Becca (57:10)

I mean, I think a lot of people who want to pay rent or pay their mortgage fear speaking out. I think there’s a quote by Hannah Ivander that’s from Hacks that just came out that I think really sums up a lot of my feelings on it. It’s pretty strong.

I know I probably am definitely like shooting myself in the foot by saying this, but I guess the thing that I wanted to talk to people who talk about using generative AI for creation. just asked them, like, what’s the problem you’re trying to solve? is it really like, is it truly that your creative is bad or that you’re paying your creative too much or your creative is sucking resources? Cause I don’t, I haven’t heard of any businesses that are going at a, like, you know, who are shutting down because

their creative department is sucking out all of their resources. But what I have heard is that a lot of corporations are squashing the creative process and there’s a lot of CEOs and presidents who are making a lot of money and I don’t think it’s a problem. I don’t think there’s a problem that we need to solve to get them more money by automating this or using generative AI. So what’s the problem you’re trying to solve right now?

Glen Erickson (58:21)

Yeah.

Becca (58:24)

That said, I also know that there’s a lot of tools that used for project management. We talked about production. also, I don’t want to be like, I’m speaking on my industry specifically. I know that AI is affecting a lot of industries. But that’s basically it. I’m just like, what was the problem that you were trying to solve with this? That like,

Glen Erickson (58:46)

Hmm.

Becca (58:46)

Is

it truly that you’re a creative team or like you’re not like is taking too much time or doing all these things? Are you really is that the reason why shareholder prices are dropping or is it you know for whatever reasons? So just like Jurassic Park kind of rule like the Jeff Goldblum quote being like should we be not asking like why like should we be doing this? It’s kind of the view.

Glen Erickson (58:59)

Yeah, that’s a great point.

Yeah, that’s a great point. mean, some of the conversations I’ve been having just like transparently are that, you know, it just, it feels more like just another version of a computer digital revolution that we’ve been having since the personal computer in the eighties and then it’s the internet in the nineties, you know, and, and then the handheld mobile revolution of the early two thousands, like.

We all just wanted jet packs and we all thought that technology would solve a bunch of problems for us. It’s just the rapidity, I think of AI that scares the shit out of most people about how fast it’s coming. Not the fact that it’s any different than every other revolution. Like I have a dishwasher with wifi and it still doesn’t work. Like what the hell? Like why can’t they figure this shit out? I still go to websites that don’t tell me what they promised to tell me. You know, like, is it all going to save our problems? But when it comes to creativity,

Becca (59:59)

Yeah.

Glen Erickson (1:00:05)

I find that the real interesting part,

Becca (1:00:05)

Well, so

yeah, so like there’s a few things. first, mean, generative AI has existed for a really long time, you know, like, or not really long time, but like these generative tools, like Photoshop, for instance, generate background content, fill, like, you know, these all have existed, there has been these tools. And yes, I do agree that it’s just like maybe a flex up and then

Glen Erickson (1:00:25)

Mm-hmm.

Becca (1:00:30)

maybe they’ll be a settle into a new way of working. breaks my heart is seeing all these layoffs and seeing these people’s lives being affected by like the fact that, you know, operations decided that they can be replaceable by AI. It’s something that’s like there’s a real human toll to that.

Glen Erickson (1:00:38)

Yeah.

Becca (1:00:45)

Another part of me is just like, cause I have like, I’m not just speaking from a place of just like a blind hater. I do my research and I do look into things and like to get decent results from a generative AI engine, you need to be pretty good with your prompting, which means that you need to write a brief. And most people that I’ve worked with that like have frustrations with creative teams, they have, they have like their biggest gripe is the fact that they have to write a brief. So like,

and write a clear brief. And so I think there’s a joke among some creative directors that they’re just like, I feel like my job is safe because if like, for people like non creatives to like use AI, they have to learn how to write a proper brief. And if they haven’t learned how to do that in the past 30 years, then I don’t think they’re gonna learn how to do that now.

Glen Erickson (1:01:15)

Yeah.

Yeah, that’s a good point. I was having this conversation last week with people where I said, you know, like, I don’t know what the percentage of the process is. Like when we create things right now, we’re often doing it on the computer. The creation of these things is really that I have an idea in my head.

And I want to get it out and I want to make it into a reality that other people can share an experience or I’m trying to communicate something. And there’s a big difference also in here, we should say between art and design, whereas art is that inspiration creation process where we’re trying to produce something that was an idea in a, physical shareable format of any kind for no other reason than that. Whereas design is very much, I’m trying to communicate a message.

And I’m going to design the message, right? In a lot of ways. and so the reason I bring that difference up is that we’re talking about design a lot of the time with bands, it really bleeds more into art, which I love, which is maybe why I wish, you know, always in my life, I could do that full time. But in the idea of creation, yeah, there’s a lot of tools that have always helped us transfer and get the idea from our head to our fingertips, to the tool.

that we’re using and maybe, know, AI tools are gonna speed that up or replace some of my own doing that. But I love the way you just said that by the way, because I think it’s really true is that if a designer could sit there and make this beautiful thing and then if I asked them, how did you make that? They stumble over the words. Most creatives haven’t really developed this process. You said like in writing a creative brief, you know, writing a good prompt.

They don’t know how to talk it, they know how to do it, right? That’s what makes them an artist quite often, I think. So you’re right, like this whole world revolves around a prompt and being able to articulate an idea and in a way good enough. And I think a lot of, know, yeah, there’s just a whole bunch there I don’t need to dive into.

Becca (1:03:31)

Yeah, part of the creative process is lot of iteration

and like, it’s like, part of the creative process is a lot of iteration. And like, I, the one thing that I find frustrating about writing prompts is that I’m like, I can just do this faster. Like I can just like, I can just like move the pixels around. I can like draw faster. I can work this out a lot faster. I think you really also hit the nail on the head. that like the fact is that with AI is that a lot of nuance is lost?

Glen Erickson (1:03:45)

Yeah.

Becca (1:03:55)

And I think that like I know you’re defining like art to like branding and everything But I think branding and like, you know marketing arts and creative like aligns with this too is that Good branding communicates without words and you need to be you and like I think ultimately like I remember when I was studying illustration

people describe illustration as like, as art that communicates. Like we deal in abstraction, so I’ll abstract an idea, but it still communicates the same idea. There’s a scale of abstraction that an illustrator, Christophe, I think it’s Christophe Nieman, or I think I’m gonna get this name wrong, but he’s an illustrator for the New York Times, and he’s like, if you think about a heart that’s like the most like anatomically correct heart,

And then like a three pixel red, like, like just like little pixelated eight bit heart, or even like a red dot. That’s like the scale of abstraction and illustrators and designers like live in that scale. Like of just like both are communicating the like the idea of heart, but it’s in different, you know, forms of abstraction. I think AI really leans to that very.

Glen Erickson (1:04:55)

Yeah.

Becca (1:05:06)

like a literal sense of depiction and creation and a lot of nuances lost. So I think that there is still, I think that there’s definitely still a need and definitely still a lot of need for creatives to be able to like take these abstract ideas and form them into shapes and colors and other ways for people to interact with either a brand or a musician or whatever.

Glen Erickson (1:05:27)

Yeah.

Becca (1:05:33)

I’m just, what I’m worried right now is that the people who make the decisions are not seeing that need.

Glen Erickson (1:05:40)

Yeah, yeah, I mean, there’s obviously a thousand rabbit holes. You don’t need to go down all of them. I think one thing I’m noticing, I think it overlaps with a question I would have had for you just about any trends that you’re seeing about how art is coming out and how design is coming out in the music business. One of the trends I’m starting to see is it’s on the surface, someone might just consider it.

primarily vintage-y, but what I’m sort of seeing more is people are going back to a broader sense of analog. I’m seeing little quick Spotify albums that are…

they’re clearly just like, they didn’t even take the time to do a really good scan of a photo probably of themselves from a photo album in their parents’ basement. They just probably took a picture of it with their phone and bring it up and then design around it. Allow the granularness of that to show through, to actually lean into pixelation, to lean into imperfection, I guess. And I’m wondering, and I can’t help but feel it’s…

It’s a swing away from the way AI is producing art where it’s trying so hard to get it right. And it seems overproduced if I can use it in that term quite often. And I’ve frequently seen trends in history, both in music and design where

you know, like the uprising of people who don’t want to seem that they’re a part of the mainstream, when they need to differentiate, they usually lean into the aspects of humanity that are imperfect, you know, like in music.

you you hear people go back and listen to music. They start to say they love vinyl because they actually love the artifacts in listening to vinyl that come out. That musicians start to produce music and they will use a lower impedance, like microphone and things so that it distorts, that it breaks up when they’re singing most passionately, most loudly.

because we’re drawn to that aspect. I’m seeing this happen a little more in band art. And I feel like it’s a bounce back, right? It’s like, it’s a reaction against where AI art is going. And I don’t know what your thoughts are on trends and whether that is something that I think we commonly do in the creative world.

just try to like pull the humanity back out of something.

Becca (1:08:06)

Yeah, I think there’s…

I think there’s always been a DIY approach to things. Especially like, I mean, like the first band t-shirt I ever made was actually for a show at the Starlight Room. It was a local band and I silkscreened it by using an embroidery hoop and panty hose and I blocked it out with Modge Podge and then I took like black ink and I like took a sponge brush and like sponged it and like lifted it and I made just by hand doing that. So I think there’s always been a DIY.

Glen Erickson (1:08:34)

I-

Becca (1:08:39)

you know, approach to things and you know, I know so many people their first AEP is just like, yeah, they’re like, sorry, they’re like bad. I was gonna say the bad photo that like their girlfriend or boyfriend took of them at a party or like

a low, you know, the grade or the arts and crafts kind of approach to it. I think that always kind of exists. I think that we are seeing a lot more leaning into it as like as a rebellion against probably like not only AI, but just also like a lot of like I mentioned, a lot of these labels are bringing their creative teams like are not using outside agencies as much anymore. And that also is a flattening of itself is just, you know, the same.

the same agency, the same designers, the same art directors tackling the same thing over and over again. And really, like, I think people want to stand out from that. And also, I think that there’s just the economics of the music industry these days is that

Glen Erickson (1:09:23)

Yeah.

Becca (1:09:36)

I don’t think there’s enough money being bet on the people who are like early career, maybe not just in their garage, but maybe you have like done like a Canadian tour or something like that. And I think there’s less money out there, less infrastructure. So we see a lot of bands like leaning into their own resources or figuring out how they can do it themselves and bootstrapping it. And I think it’s amazing.

Glen Erickson (1:09:49)

Yeah.

Yeah, that’s a really good point. The economics is always, should be front and center in the conversation because it tends to steer why we do things and to be, whether it’s the production of music or finding places to play in venues or the design. like you said, like bands have always been some of the best at.

creating cool things out of limited means, right? Like I only had a Casio keyboard from Radio Shack and I learned to make this cool shit on it that people really liked, you know what I mean? By sort of interpreting it. So I think that has always happened. I mean, that was around before AI. This isn’t a new problem. I think it’s, you call it flattening. I call it homogenizing quite often. Like…

Becca (1:10:42)

Yeah.

Glen Erickson (1:10:45)

One of the most repugnant to me was, I call it the American Idol homogenizing of album art. You could tell anybody who had finished, because they’re under a contract, right? If they make it a certain distance in that show, then for the first year after, any music they produced basically had to be.

stamped by American Idol. And all of the album artwork was basically a singular photo of themselves, usually a face photo, and then very large, pretty boring sans serif text of their name. It was just big name photo. as…

You know, anyhow, so it was so homogenized, but it was also strangely then I could pick out exactly. like, I would walk along and I would be like, that’s like, clearly they belong to that group. anyhow, like that problem was around long before.

Becca (1:11:26)

Yeah.

Yeah.

It’s a signature, but maybe

not a desirable signature.

Glen Erickson (1:11:41)

Yeah, it’s like

a signature that came without effort maybe is why it offends me. You know what I mean? It’s like, so.

Becca (1:11:46)

Yeah, I

mean, I do feel bad for the designers. had to throw that together. And like, I will say this, I know that it is like, I kind of rolled my eyes a little bit the photo thing because

as someone who, a lot of the battle is trying to convince artists, especially like ones that are young in their career, not to just do that, not necessarily like the sans-serif thing, but just like, don’t just put a photo of yourself on the album. But at the same time, I understand why you want to put a photo of yourself on the album because people don’t know you and offering that image of yourself. But let’s try to find a creative director, find an art director to make it interesting. Let’s say something different with it. Let’s get an interesting

photo of you on the album if you really want to have a photo of you on the album.

Glen Erickson (1:12:33)

I’ve taken up all of our time, and I realize I could probably talk to you for another hour easily about a whole bunch of these things. So I think maybe we’ll just have to plan for…

maybe a return in a year when we see where the world goes with this. And then we just discuss where these things are and where they’re going again and might be a fun thing to do. So Becca, maybe the last, one of the last couple of things I wanna ask you, obviously you’re doing work that you like, but also is like, know, career aspirational you want, but.

you know, but you have the ability to keep doing things that inspire you. Like you said, you still get to work with some grassroots brands. I’ve seen sort of your visual style. I mean, you talked earlier about, you know, some people are like locked into a style. It’s also good when you realize designers have like empath skills, they can understand and adjust and shift, but it’s also really cool when people develop a real specific style. So you have a bunch of artwork like that’s up on

Instagram and places that you have a very distinct sort of illustrative style. I’m curious what you call that style. Because I didn’t know how to put a name on it, even though it’s so familiar to me. I’ve seen it in a lot of, you know, like cartoons for the lack of a better term, you know, lot of graphic novels or certain styles they go to. But I was like, I don’t even know how to say it. So I had to like chat, GPT the shit.

And then it gave me all these things. So I’m curious what you call your very distinctive illustrative style.

Becca (1:13:57)

I’m actually curious to see here what chatgpt said, because I actually have difficulty explaining it myself.

Glen Erickson (1:14:03)

Okay, you want

the four terms it gave me? And then you tell me whether you think that’s bullshit. Okay. So the very first, okay, well, it says this. says, do you want to know how it profiles you? Do want me to read it out that way? It’s kind of fun. Some people love this. It says the portfolio of Becca McFarlane often working under the brand Minifists.

Becca (1:14:06)

Sure.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, give me give it like honestly, this is great. This is like, this is gonna be a horoscope, right almost.

Glen Erickson (1:14:32)

reveals a distinct visual language that sits at the intersection of contemporary absurdist editorial and modern retro illustration. That’s how it profiled you.

Becca (1:14:40)

Yeah, so

sometimes I call it like Bauhaus absurdist. Sometimes how I will explain it like is like Bauhaus in the sense that like, I’ll use like really geometric forms and you know, add like exaggerated shapes and very limited color palettes. But absurdist is definitely one of the ones. Yeah, so Minifist.

Glen Erickson (1:14:48)

Okay.

Becca (1:15:03)

It first started just like, cause I wanted to do illustration work and I was working for companies that had very strict contracts I had to sign that meant that I couldn’t really be doing freelancer work outside of the company. They would own it. A lot of creatives have to deal with this. So I developed a moniker to work under so that I could just, you know, have some plausible deniability, but it actually ended up being a blessing in a sense that having many fists.

Glen Erickson (1:15:17)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Becca (1:15:32)

allows me to have that really strong point of view and like strong sense of style and like my own signature as an artist while maintaining Becca McFarlane and my creative endeavors as you know Becca McFarlane as someone who can adapt and work with different brands because I as much as like I would love to be a name brand artist where you know people are reaching out to me and wanted to collaborate with me just on name alone.

Glen Erickson (1:15:50)

Hmm.

Becca (1:15:58)

I still want to be able to collaborate with bands and be like, I’m not going to make everything mini-fists for you. I will make it whatever your musician, whatever your point of view is as a musician or as a brand is. But yeah, it’s allowed me to really get to know myself and get to know what I wanted to produce as an illustrator. And it’s the two wolves that live inside me.

Glen Erickson (1:16:24)

Yeah, that’s really great. I love it. It’s really great. I, like it’s not exactly like this, but like, like I went through a big like adventure time phase and then there was this offshoot I showed my kids that I thought at that time I’m like, maybe they’re a little young for this thing called uncle grandpa, which was incredible. And then like, there’s just a little hints of those things in there. I think the absurdist part is probably where it leans towards.

Becca (1:16:34)

Mmm.

Mm.

Glen Erickson (1:16:51)

But I love sort of when there’s an intersection and people are like what you did are willing to sort of just like, I’ll just hang a name on this thing and then I can sort of flourish under that while I do this other thing. There’s an artist I love, his name’s Scott Hansen. As a musician, he has spent a lot of time under the band named Tycho, but he had one of my earliest, like.

ISO 50 was his like screen print design. Actually, it’s hiding behind me. Can you see one of his pieces of artwork? Anyhow, it was incredible. Anyhow, so I really like when there’s an opportunity to sort of be like, I can do this and then I can also do this. And I think that’s really inspiring. Okay, so my very last question for you is basically you hinted at it and I’m gonna ask to try to articulate a little bit.

Becca (1:17:18)

nice. Yeah.

Glen Erickson (1:17:39)

better because if musicians are artists or grassroots more people or even people who are getting to the point where they’re like, maybe I do need somebody who acts like an art director because I’m starting to make a career out of this thing and I really want to hone this in. You you had said a tip earlier about, know, don’t just pick somebody based on their style. Like you see them and you’re like, I want you to reproduce this style for me and that’s going to be my style. Like that doesn’t

maybe not the best first choice to going down that path, but instead, you know, I’m wondering if you can articulate what are the things if somebody wants to meet somebody or find somebody like where

where do they find them? Do you just start asking around friends? Like when you’re trying to consider like budgets and who does things for love more than money sometimes? How does a band or an artist find somebody, you know, to work with them?

Becca (1:18:35)

Yeah.

I’m a big fan of shooting your shot. Like even with like reaching out to Aaron at the cardboard box project, I think they had posted a job, but they had already filled it. And I just still emailed him and I’m just like, I’m in love with everything you do. Please like let me know if you have any work. And then he like got back to, he was like, I don’t have anything right now. We just hired, filled the role, but, and then it was months later, he reached out to me and I’m so thankful he did. I’ve also gotten a lot of work off the back of that, just like, know, sliding into DMs, getting to know people.

Glen Erickson (1:18:59)

Mmm.

Becca (1:19:06)

I’ve

had the opportunity to work with a lot of young people, or even when I was in illustration program with 18 year olds and I was 26, I was exposed to a lot of young artists, not that I was old and wise and dead, like 26 years old, but I had a decade on them and they would be so stressed out about their work and getting an A or nailing this concept art and everything. I’m just like, go out to a party.

Glen Erickson (1:19:21)

you

Becca (1:19:33)

go out to a party and meet people.

Glen Erickson (1:19:35)

Mmm.

Becca (1:19:36)

Any opportunity that I’ve had, like we’ve gone through like my career and every and like 90 % of it was through friends and through those connections and people I’ve met and like I got to know people in bands and actors and musicians and who’s the first person they call when they need like some merch done? Like it was me like and I think it works the same like if you meet someone like at a bar or like going to like it just like go out there like no one cares

Glen Erickson (1:19:57)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Becca (1:20:05)

about

your marks. Sorry, I shouldn’t say that. like, no one, but like, go out, go to a party because like you will like only get by with your with a little help from your friends, you know, like, and so if you don’t know people who are in the visual arts or know who people do art directing, like put yourself out there. And if you’re an art director, if you’re a creative that like wants to find more work with musicians, like just say it out loud, like

Glen Erickson (1:20:09)

Hahaha

Yeah.

Becca (1:20:32)

figure out a way to awkwardly work it into conversation to be like, I’m actually a designer. I love working with these artists. Be the person who just says it out loud. Because if you don’t, then people are going to be like, yeah, that person was really nice. I wonder what they do. then they don’t realize. There were so many people who knew me for a lot of years and actually didn’t realize that I was an illustrator. And they’re just like, you do that? I need that.

Glen Erickson (1:20:41)

Yeah.

Hmm.

Becca (1:20:59)

So just say it out loud and tell people about it and say, and like also like you as a musician, like, you know, say like, yeah, I really am having a hard time to like, you know, developing my creative identity. That feels very formal to say at like a party, but even like you just put that out into the world and be like, I know someone who works in that, or I know someone who would be like, I think you two would get along really well. But I think that like back to your question is just like.

Finding someone, it is a relationship. And if you want it to be a long standing one, then find someone that you get along with. It doesn’t have to be your friend from university. can be, there’s so many excellent working relationships out there, but just find someone who gets you.

Glen Erickson (1:21:29)

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, let’s, and we won’t use the word networking because it feels dirty. And then that’s not what we’re talking about. I think I relate more to the part where you’re saying like, you got to have your face in front of somebody else’s face because the way a lot of this often works is like when they need it, maybe not right in the moment, they’re going to remember something, somebody and

Becca (1:21:46)

Yeah.

Glen Erickson (1:22:05)

you know, how do you get yourself to the front of the line? Well, you just go out, you gotta leave the house and go and put yourself in front of people and around people and get in touch with people. So I think that’s really great advice. And then, can’t help but keep thinking when you reference like going at 26 to be with these 18 year olds at the school, 17, 18 year olds.

Becca (1:22:16)

Yeah.

Glen Erickson (1:22:26)

I just want a picture so bad like, you know, like the Channing Tatum and Jonah Hill movie where they like as adults had to go back to undercover into high school. About, yeah, that’s it. Yeah. The graphic design 21 Jump Street and Becca trying to like fake her way like back into 18 year old school.

Becca (1:22:36)

Was it 21 Jump Street? That was an 80s TV series.

Yeah, I was… It was very Steve Buscemi

meme from 30 Rock. How do you with a skateboard? I think he has two skateboards in it. He’s like, how do you do young people? Yeah, it was very that. No, I came in being like…

I’m a wise and woman of the world, don’t talk to me. And then like, and that was my first year. And then my second year, there was like one, one guy who was like, yeah, this young 17 year old and he would not like, he was just like, we’re gonna be friends. I don’t care. And then eventually I just started telling him my wisdom and I

Glen Erickson (1:23:02)

I love it.

Becca (1:23:16)

probably gave him a lot of bad advice, yeah, was as someone like Ellie’s my older sister. I’m also an older sister. I’m the middle of the three. So I do still, I have a little bit of older sister power in me. And I think that, you know, like managing creative teams and being a creative director, that comes out a lot, like mentoring people and giving advice, albeit destructive at times.

Glen Erickson (1:23:37)

That’s great.

Yeah, well, I I hope she doesn’t mind the comparison, but walking into a room as the wise woman of the world, I don’t care, really feels like Ellie’s brand sometimes. So she pulls that off really well. She’s got that confidence about her for sure. And I see that in you.

Becca (1:23:55)

Yeah.

I think now we’re getting to

an age where it’s like earned confidence. before, we were like that at 15. Our parents really instilled a lot of unearned confidence in us. So we would walk into rooms like that.

Glen Erickson (1:24:04)

For sure.

Listen, there’s a line. There’s,

yeah, there’s a line that connects it. Yes, you’ve earned it, but you get there because you had it in the first place. You can’t erase the line between the two for sure. This has been an absolute treat for me, Becca. Obviously it’s like runs directly parallel to everything that I’ve been about in my life. So it’s very fun conversation. I appreciate you taking the chance and coming and having the conversation.

with me and I feel like at some point we’re gonna have to have more conversation about this because I like your perspective and I like your experience it’s a lot of fun you’re a lot of fun thank you awesome

Becca (1:24:46)

Yeah, awesome. Yeah, no problem. Thank you.

Glen Erickson (1:25:00)

34 43 I just had it backwards. You just did a you did a dyslexer. Yeah dyslexy. Yeah, you did it. I did one of my own. There’s a joke. I don’t need to keep going with it. I understood but it was really good dyslexy. That’s mean to the dyslexics. But yeah, my apologies. 43 welcome to 43 post fame with Alexi and me Glenn. Yes.

bit of a different episode. Yes. in like a very different episode. Well, not only did we take a departure and like type of guest. Yeah. And the type of image use that we posted on the Instagram. Yeah. Okay. That’s where I was going to get to. Like also, yeah, the biggest departure. Cause we’ve had like industry people, but they were more like real, like formal figures, like in the industry so far.

as opposed to, yeah, like a designer, which is close to my heart, but the, yeah, the art for the art. liked it. I think I have another one to go with a reel that she gave me that I’m going to use as the cover art for the grid. I like it. Yeah, she has a very cool style. And selection. Very unique artistic style illustrative. Yeah.

which is something I, I don’t know, I don’t know what it is. Like obviously I’ve been watching the design world my whole life, but especially my whole professional life. And when you see somebody who does, you know, a variety of good work for people, but then you realize they’ve developed like their own thing, like a signature. Like it takes actually for some people, maybe not for all, a fair amount of courage to develop a signature.

Because you have to spend a lot of time choosing. it narrows your client base. Well, and you have to choose to keep doing it over and over and over again and not be like, I’m going to learn all this. Rebranding every five seconds. learn all the styles. Yeah. You know, but to be like, no, I’m going to really do the thing that, anyhow. Yeah. I mean, painters obviously do that all the time, right? Yeah. Like, but not graphic designers. Yeah. Or illustrators, maybe illustrators more, but. First question for you. OK.

Oh, questions for me. It’s like question and answer. Well, this one, no. This is a really great angle. I should use this. Oh, literally never come back to post it ever again. Yeah, you’d be done. Anyways, what was my question? Oh, do you think like, Kate, you were like excited for this episode point blank. Well, yeah, full of transparency. Why? Right. Or you don’t want me to say no, that’s just irrelevant right now. OK, I was going to say.

like point blank, you were excited. Yeah. For those reasons, for a lot of reasons. But do you think you were also more excited because like, we’ve also been talking lately about how like, we’ve been doing a little bit of like design work here and there. And like, you’ve kind of like gone back into being interested in like doing. Like, cause just like the way your career has developed, the point you’re at, you do less hands on design work and you were saying that like, it’s something that you still love doing and like, you still do it kind of like as hobby and like.

want to incorporate it more like do you think because like sometimes you interview artists and there’s like you’re like I’d love to be in their shoes like a part of you and so that’s why it makes it even more like interesting for you like do you think that part of you is like not necessarily like you want to be in her shoes specifically but like you know no I do admire that she’s in the design work world that you enjoy to be clear like she’s never technically been like a full-time designer for the music industry yeah she just

spent a good chunk of time at an agency who that was kind of their calling card, right? Like they had this relationship with some of the really cool indie labels and indie bands and stuff at the time. So she got this great opportunity. It’s very rare that somebody will be like full time-ish. Like this is all they do for bands, artists. Anyhow, to answer your question, yes, absolutely.

Definitely would want to have been in her shoes. Like I’ve had a great opportunity to design a lot of music stuff for my local scene. Do you mean like when I was, I essentially built my portfolio, which was a real running joke with my first design company employers for like years and years afterwards. like, it would seem on the surface a little mean, but

They didn’t ever mean it as mean, but they always loved to be like, remember your portfolio? cause I showed up at a lunch with them when I went and asked for a job and I didn’t go to school for any of this. Right. So, they said, bring a portfolio. And all I had was like printouts and album covers and like posters, right. And merch and all this, mostly just things I had done in the music scene for all of my peers.

And yeah, there was a part of me that would have thought, do I pursue doing that? So if I had wanted to just do graphic design, could have definitely tried to just go after that. that, like going back to what we just talked about, I think you have to, or I had a sense you have to really create some version of a niche for the way you work. For it to be full time. That makes it really appealing to a lot of bands that would refer you.

labels that would get you to do the work or refer you. Anyhow.

It’s really hard to make money right away because you have to get started working for all kinds of people who have like no budget for a graphic designer. Yeah. Who are either wanting to like trade services or blah, blah. You know what I mean? Yeah. So very hard to get going in it, but definitely that was a massive interest for me and my life earlier on and still is. So yeah, you’re right. Like current hobbyist-ness. you’re into it on a personal level. Yeah.

Big time. I’m at this stage in life finding it more difficult to like come home after working all day and then at night be like, I need to go fix a thing for somebody’s website or you know what I mean? Or even your mom’s like, can you make a postcard for our association? And I’m like, look at that, you know? But I don’t want to do that. But do I want to like work every week on my

episode covers and my social media art and do all the things for the podcast over and over that I made every time. Yeah. Cause I love it and it’s my thing. Well, that actually leads right into my other point. that’s perfect. What a great know, I’m basically the best host. You can just say it. Okay. But anyways, the whole, it relates to her quarter life crisis. Like that whole thing. Well, that was a big thing for me in her No, I know, I can tell.

But like just like, it’s kind of exactly what you just said is just like the, oh, um, you’re really, really into the graphic design and you could enjoy doing it every single day. But she actually said like the opposite as well as true that like, just because you’re good at something doesn’t mean it’s like what you’re meant to do your entire life. 100%. That’s great advice for anybody. And I just, I love, I love that advice and I love that it actually goes both ways. Cause it’s like, you know, if you’re good at something,

I think because here’s the thing, like the way she laid out the equation is like, if you’re good at something, it does not equal you having to do it rest of your life. Because I think it has to be like the plus you love doing it. And then it equals like, yeah, do it the rest of your life. thing that you’re good at can get you jobs. Right? Yeah. Should it necessarily get you your career?

if you think about it in a different term. Like when we talk about vocation, it’s not just a job. It’s like, this is what I’ve invested myself to do for the long haul. I feel like this is what I’m made to do kind of talk. Well, I think it’s the whole purpose talk too. Exactly. That’s a lot of both. You be like, I’m so good at this. And because like, for example, like even if like, I mean, if you remove the whole factor of like scale and like how much the costs nowadays, but it’s like, I would consider myself like,

relatively like good server in a restaurant just because I’m like outgoing and can memorize a menu but like that doesn’t mean you know I mean yeah I would it doesn’t my whole life it doesn’t a mean that you’re meant to be great at it no or that yeah that you would want to like I guess I’ll just settle in here because people are validating me yeah so do you remember I don’t know if you remember the conversation with Sammy Volkoff mm-hmm so

Part of Sammy’s story specifically was, remember he was doing acting and everyone told him he was good at acting and so he went off to New York to pursue some acting and he bounced around all around this acting premise of… But what he really wanted to do the whole time he was bouncing around acting was he was writing songs on the train. You know what mean? So it made me think of that. Totally. I just think it’s interesting that she… It wasn’t even a big moment but it was just kind of calling out that fact.

like very forwardly because I think so many people settle into that. Yeah. Because they don’t want to face discomfort or whatever it like might be. And as soon as they find there’s something they’re good at, they like kind of latch on to it. that’s like the whole like people not taking risks. Well, because it’s people were were like not in favor of failure, like we’re almost like internalized.

opposed to failure, right? And we love, on the other side, we love validation. So you put all that kind of stuff together and people will fall into the safer lane of where they’re validated for what they’re doing, right? It doesn’t involve too much risk. It’s not gonna cost them anything if they fail probably. And that’s not talking people down or…

If people are listening and going like, that’s maybe me and it sounds like I’m shitty for making that choice. That’s not what I’m saying at all. I think that’s just how we’re wired as people. And especially when the validation thing really makes you feel like that, this is what I’m good at. This is what I should do. But some people might be experiencing what she articulated, which is like, I’m not satisfied with…

Yeah. With this, right? I’m spending all my time doing some things I’m good at helping other people with their artistic careers. Yeah. And I’m not creating the one that I want for myself, which is the thing I really, really relate to because, you know, I started doing the record label, right, for all my friends’ music and then our music. And then I wanted to try and grow it, you know, and 10 years in, I had put out like

26 records or 28 records and felt like I loved doing the thing, but it was adjacent to what I really wanted to be doing, which was the guy making the music. And I took a run at doing publicity. did all kinds of stuff. I’m doing a music podcast right now. Like I’ve done so many and worn so many hats that are adjacent to making the art. And you know, in an ideal world,

I would have just been making the art. Yeah, totally. But I can’t, I’ve also learned not to regret it because I’ve gotten a lot of joy out of making all the things that go into making the art. Yeah. Like I’ve loved teaching and I’ve loved like helping bands learn and having learning programs and development programs. And I’ve loved being involved in all of that kind of stuff, involved in like choosing how to give money away.

hundreds of thousands of dollars and yeah, all that stuff’s giving me joy too so I can’t take away from. Well, the only way she framed her own journey, similar to how you just kind of phrased yours, she framed it all as like, none of the steps were failure, they were just the whole point. Yeah, exactly. And I’m like, I like that. In the moment you’re like, this feels like a step back, this feels like I failed at something. But then like,

You waited out a few years and you’re like, that was like the whole point, like the whole like, oh, the journey of the destination. But it’s like so true. Yeah. I love that we got all of these like life points. You know, not an artist, do you what I mean? Out of somebody who’s maybe the farthest away from the core of who I have typically talked to. And yet some of the kind of things that I want to talk about the most came out. Yeah. Yeah. I really like that.

Is that all the questions you had for me? That was like, that was it. Yeah, basically. I had a whole AI tangent, but I just don’t even want to go into it. Yeah. I mean, I asked her because it was really kind of like front of mind. Yeah. No. And relevant for the episode. Yeah. And a lot of people I’ve been talking to are the ones feeling challenged or the creative type. there was things to talk about there. I also at one point felt like, I got into deep stuff. I was like, I need to back out. We don’t need to.

keep going and going on this. Plus like twice it was like, could be terrible for me trying to find a job if I align myself one way or the other. So I was like, oops, sorry, Becca. You’re like, let me just take a couple steps back. Sometimes I wish I just always had like on my phone, like right willing and ready. If I press the side button, it would do that like big reverse on a No, that reverse on a truck. That was the worst sounding reverse on a truck. Yours by the way.

Mine was second worst. thought you meant the rewind of a tape. That’s what my sound was. Oh. They’re like… Okay, well that was also bad. Oh, I thought it was pretty good. You don’t have a job in sound effects. No, and after this episode I never will. So, it’s fine. Okay, well mean if that’s all you got for me. Well… I’m just kidding. That’s totally fine. Whatever. I’m glad you touched on the things that I felt were like really cool and significant. Yeah. In that conversation and I mean I could have pulled out…

so much more. think at the end I had like five different points I was like kind of thinking about and then I was like, this isn’t another hour episode, like we don’t need all that. Yeah, I mean there was like things that I could have gone down that would have been for me, like they would have just satisfied my like design indie music hobby, you know what I mean? World talk, like for me I could have really gone down for example a rabbit hole of

You know, I don’t want to just ask like, what’s it like designing, you know, for Arcade Fire? Well, I asked the question that I knew sort of wanted to be clarified, which is like, you’re working for an agency or a middleman. Really? You don’t talk to Arcade Fire. So I thought it was cool that she talked about how like people should have their own creative director, like artists. And I really thought about it like that, but it’s really, really true. Because I even was just hearing

was on. Have you heard of the Icelandic artist Laufey? Oh my goodness. She’s very famous. Okay. Well, I’ve just never heard you talk about her. That’s why I asked you. Yeah, my friends really like her. And I heard her on a podcast recently. And of course I was greatly interested because I’ve been to Iceland and I love the country and all that stuff. and she has a twin and she was talking about how when about the time in college, they kind of went separate.

They’re both doing music stuff, but they went to different colleges. And stuff she started writing started blowing up. That’s when she started blowing up. And her sister came and became her creative director. And I thought, that’s funny because I just heard Becca talk about it like that. And I’ve been in this industry for a long time and I’ve hardly ever heard anybody talk about an individual artist or band having their own creative director as part of their team. But I thought that was…

It is such a really good idea. And I could have gone down the whole like, you know, like what were your tastes in actual music so that that really affects the style you want to develop and like who’s kind of art. Like I’m even looking around on the wall and the phase I went through a screen print posters for bands. I got a whole bunch on the wall and therefore, so it’s art that I think I love. Yeah. And it inspires me so deeply because it’s also Interpol.

and the Decemberist and Modest Mouse, you know what I mean, and Wilco. So like that combination to me of the music I love with these art styles was just like the strongest drug and I thought I could probably have commiserated more, but that’s not for everybody else. So. I was gonna say there was a couple of conversations that like were obviously like cut in an appropriate time, but I’m like, you guys could go for like a cup of coffee or like a beer and talk for like hours about like all these different things.

But that’s the best part with a guest when you get that kind of connection and conversation. agree. And so the last little tibetal ad is, know how I’m always like after a podcast based on that, I’m like, you know how the goal for me is always like, I’d like to feel like I could walk away and like, not just that I could like, I think we’re friends now and I would want people listening to feel like that’s somebody I would love to just hang out with and could be friends with. remember like first episode of season three with Juliana Rialino who

I’d wanted to talk to you so much since seeing her at Folkfest. And then she was like so kind because we were having internet issues and then she’s just so bubbly and sort of giving in her conversation. Like it was easy to kind of have a back and forth. And I left being like, I think we could be like totally be buddies. Anyhow, so then I saw her crossing the street here in Edmonton a couple of few days ago or whatever that was. She was here with City in Color. She’s opening right? Yeah. And I leaned my head out the window and I’m like…

do the embarrassing like, Juliana. And then I’m like, I’m going to have to say who I am. You know what I mean? And you could see in her face trying to track who I am. But only been on a screen. And then when she, her eyes kind of brightened when all of a sudden registered and then she just waved and just kept walking with her friend. And then I was like, yeah, we’re not like actually friends. You know what I mean? Yeah. But I would do the same thing. I know, but it’s all fine. Do you know what I mean? Yeah.

I just find it. I thought if you were like at the same time, I be transparent that it’s like I also have those like down to earth moments. Yeah. Like, we’re not actually friends despite how well the podcast. No, it’s like if you saw each other, like if you were like the next act and you’re both there, you could like sit down and chat. That’s different. You’re right. Like, if you’re like in motion. Yeah. If we’re in an event, we could end up, you know, yeah, pull aside and chat for a bit. But 100 percent. But it was just a funny moment. Yeah, that’s really good. OK, that’s all for episode 43.

Okay, we’ll see you for 44. See you in 44. Love you. Bye. Bye.